padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Was that really what white liberals thought in 2013?
that's why I said euphemism. obviously it's been unacceptable for much longer than 7 years to actually say "lazy".

there has been a sea-change in how white liberals view systemic racism in relation to the undeniable fact of racial wealth and inequality gaps

without some kind of systemic effect - historical, current, or both - the only explanation for those gaps is that black people are somehow less capable

#notallwhiteliberals, of course, some always did, but in aggregate they have in the last few years essentially accepted the reality of systemic racism

it's not just Ferguson ofc - it's Oscar Grant and Trayvon Martin, Ta-Nehisi Coates making the modern case for reparations, etc

in fact, white liberals have become more liberal on most questions related to race and diversity than people of color

it's actually a pretty amazing development, and not one I think could have been easily predicted 10 or really even 5 years ago
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the important point, again, is just that there's no inherent religiosity in anti-racism

obviously a parallel can be drawn between religious awakening and "awakening" to the truth of systemic racism, but the one is a matter of faith and the other is acceptance of facts with hard evidence to back them up.
 

suspendedreason

Well-known member
without some kind of systemic effect - historical, current, or both - the only explanation for those gaps is that black people are somehow less capable

There's always the alt-woke libertarian take—"welfare state and gov coddling has crippled the community." Or its strange conservative half-brother—"excesses and immoralities in the community have been excused on account of white guilt/lower standards masquerading as progressivism" (usually this one comes with an antipathy towards hip-hop and its recent canonization in bastions of high culture).

Not that I'm advocating either view, or disputing your larger points. I wouldn't have anywhere near the demographic exposure to know either way.
 

suspendedreason

Well-known member
there has been a sea-change in how white liberals view systemic racism in relation to the undeniable fact of racial wealth and inequality gaps

the important point, again, is just that there's no inherent religiosity in anti-racism

obviously a parallel can be drawn between religious awakening and "awakening" to the truth of systemic racism, but the one is a matter of faith and the other is acceptance of facts with hard evidence to back them up.

I feel like you could have it both ways—that the end result is productive, but the means is religious, and that the religious means are part of what accomplished the end result so quickly. As you say, a "sea-change." In Graeber's frame, the great religions are always pushback on the debt narrative, ways of having compassion for your neighbors rather than merely collecting from them. Maybe something analogous can be said here about reparations, debt forgiveness, etc.

That said, I have no idea how you'd decide whether something was religious other than the obvious thing (deities, calling itself a religion...). E.g. most things you could say are "religious" are also true of sports impulses. Is sports fandom """really""" a sublimated religious impulse? I have no idea how to answer that.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
There's always the alt-woke libertarian take—"welfare state and gov coddling has crippled the community." Or its strange conservative half-brother—"excesses and immoralities in the community have been excused on account of white guilt/lower standards masquerading as progressivism"
I should have been more clear - no explanation that will hold water with white liberals, which obv neither of those would

and as you say we're in agreement here, but just to clarify that the first argument predates alt-anything. it's as old as the welfare state itself and has been a prominent conservative trope since at least the 80s. GW - or rather one of his speechwriters - famously phrased it as "the soft bigotry of low expectations".

the second argument being a rehash of the first plus a variation of "black people are less capable" with a white man's burden twist.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
the religious means are part of what accomplished the end result so quickly
there's probably something in that. Ferguson (or Travyon or etc) as Damascene moment, as I mentioned an "awakening" parallel above. whether or not that's "religious" seems as you say more a more semantics than substance. one could also draw an obvious parallel to redpill "awakening".

and the point about debt - in both material and non-material (emotional) terms - and compassion is interesting, especially in centering a driving force that isn't guilt - compassion being unnecessary for guilt but the cornerstone of empathy

I don't think any of that is really what I'm pushing back against tho, which is the description of anti-racism as a literal secular religious movement in an ahistorical manner basically eliding the history of actual religion in American racism and anti-racism
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Everything's a religion nowadays apparently. Someone here was trying to say veganism is a religion recently. It's a bit much. Lots of things share features with religion and work on some of the same lines in a loose way, eg, enthusiasm, ethical concern, purity... whatever... but it doesn't make them religions
 

vimothy

yurp
idk I have mixed feelings on that casting of wokeness in general and anti-racism especially in a religious light, i.e. John McWhorter

I didn't mean to imply that wokeness is a kind of religion, only that secular liberals have take on the role of Christians in Nietzsche's schema (quoted earlier in the thread), as the propagators and administrators of "slave morality", with Christians now assuming the role of the heroic pagans whose temples they once destroyed as the religious icons of a barbarian other. boot's on the other foot, in other words
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
only that secular liberals have take on the role of Christians in Nietzsche's schema
yeah I thought about adding a disclaimer "unless you're using it in a philosophical context I'm not familiar with"

take it as a general response to John McWhorter etc instead of your comment there

tho I still don't think Christians, unlike secular liberals, are accurately situated in your formulation. plenty of Christians embrace this liberal "slave morality" and plenty of its opponents are secular. or put another way, Christianity isn't synonymous with the barbarian other of secular liberal morality.
 

chava

Well-known member
Christians don't have a monopoly on compassion, empathy, etc

this is like people who asking how you can have ethics without God

Nah, not really. And of course they don't. But some (Christians, Hobbesian types, evolutionary psychologists) would probably argue that racism is the default position and you need a tremendous amount of cultural work to suppress that
 

Leo

Well-known member

boxedjoy

Well-known member
it's actually Annabel Ross who the feature is credited to.

I didn't enjoy clicking on the RA homepage to be met with a banner headline "Multiple women accuse Derrick May of sexual harassment and assault" the same way they would have a headline about the latest podcast or interview. I mean, it absolutely should be headline news for the site but I had to do a double take, it made me feel uncomfortable, although in this context I guess that's a good thing.
 
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