luka

Well-known member
also they borrow from Orwell the idea of words ceasing to mean anything but what power arbitarily decides them to mean. a women could have a beard and a penis. you cant argue or you will be sent to the Haliburton death camps.
 

luka

Well-known member
i don't think anyone in the world has a coherent position on any of this. everyones stance has become a mess of contradictions and fudging.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
again you can see this most clearly when looked at in its most developed and perfect form, in the conspiracy fears of transhumanism.

The motif of elite/celebrity organised paedophilia is also an extremely powerful attractor in this space - the ultimate sin against nature, against the fundamental human bonds which reproduce society, protect the vulnerable etc

I mean they actually are all nonces, but. It still functions as a sort of blood-libel.
 

luka

Well-known member
The motif of elite/celebrity organised paedophilia is also an extremely powerful attractor in this space - the ultimate sin against nature, against the fundamental human bonds which reproduce society, protect the vulnerable etc

I mean they actually are all nonces, but. It still functions as a sort of blood-libel.

that's right.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
i don't think anyone in the world has a coherent position on any of this. everyones stance has become a mess of contradictions and fudging.

It's a very Nova War-ish situation - a lot of the fudging is around things that could be more freely admitted (or expansively considered) if it weren't for the fact that the Other Side is energetically trying to make hay with them. A lot of people are having nuanced conversations amongst themselves, while upholding comparatively simplified and sloganeering positions in public, because the alternative is letting enemies score cheap points off you.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
positions are becoming increasingly incoherent. tending towards an anti capitalist right and a pro capitalist left.
I've been wondering for a whether we could do with a thread about "right-wing anti-capitalism".

I was struck by this guy, arguing in favour of Brexit in Twitter the other day:

neolibneomarx.JPG

I mean he's obviously a moron but is there a grain of truth to that third bullet point? Social liberalism is inextricably linked to neoliberalism, the current dominant form of capitalism in the West. Obviously liberalism isn't "the left", but if you're on the right then they might look similar from that distance.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
I mean to start with the obvious, classical fascism/Nazism was explicitly against the free flow of capital, the speculations of (((financiers))) etc - very much in favour of private property, corporatism, the wage labour relation (with unions firmly kept in their place) etc, but the explicit offer was of strong popular government against the Judeo-Bolshevism which had weakened economies, undermined cultural integrity/racial purity, and sapped the nation's will (i.e. ability to act coherently in its own interests). So it's "anti-capitalism" only up to a point - there are still very much bosses, owners, private wealth and so on, it's just that the ruling framework is provided by the state/nation, which acts to protect the interests of its own against the predations of transnational actors and the sedition of enemies within.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
The right has always liked rich people, who own lots of stuff, sitting in big mansions with a deep wall of police and military between them and dirty proles who might want to take any of it away from them. That's the natural order of things. There is no "right-wing anti-capitalism" that proposes to disrupt this fundamental arrangement in any way, although there is an occasional impatience with the dissolutely wealthy and their flagitious disregard for public morals. You have to keep up appearances, otherwise you weaken the fabric of society. Downton Abbey, not Russian oligarchs snorting coke off trafficked 15-year-olds in their sex basements.
 

poetix

we murder to dissect
I've never been in a sex basement, so I can only imagine - at length and in salacious detail - what kinds of things they get up to in them.
 

comelately

Wild Horses
It's probably worth saying that 'The Moral Maze' on Radio 4 is basically owned by the former RCP.

Andrew Doyle who used to write Jonathan Pie (no longer), and now writes Titania McGrath is a long-time Spiked columnist.

Adam Curtis has also been linked with Furedi.

Claire Fox runs the IEA and is a former Brexit Party MEP.

It's possibly worth saying that far-lefties moving to the right is not really a new thing, moving from Marxism to neoliberalisn was literally textbook stuff (i.e. in my 1st year explantory politics textbook). The anti-capitalist right is a bit newer (Red Torys were invented pretty early in the 20h Century though).

But of course, the right were intensely relaxed about deplatforming when they thought that it was the left who would be deplatformed.

Brexit also has a logic of its own - when you've made international trade really hard (at least for SMEs), it makes sense to act like it was always overrated.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I mean to start with the obvious, classical fascism/Nazism was explicitly against the free flow of capital, the speculations of (((financiers))) etc - very much in favour of private property, corporatism, the wage labour relation (with unions firmly kept in their place) etc, but the explicit offer was of strong popular government against the Judeo-Bolshevism which had weakened economies, undermined cultural integrity/racial purity, and sapped the nation's will (i.e. ability to act coherently in its own interests). So it's "anti-capitalism" only up to a point - there are still very much bosses, owners, private wealth and so on, it's just that the ruling framework is provided by the state/nation, which acts to protect the interests of its own against the predations of transnational actors and the sedition of enemies within.
I think Nazi Germany can fairly be called 'state-capitalist', in that wealth remained in private hands but the economy was directly controlled by the government. The British and American economies worked along similar lines during the war, I understand. Something similar seems to have emerge independently in China, which is looking more and more like Nazi Germany all the time.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There is no "right-wing anti-capitalism" that proposes to disrupt this fundamental arrangement in any way...
Yes, of course there isn't really. What I'm getting at is the right-wing populist movements that have convinced a lot of people that they're under attack by a nebulous "elite" - which includes anyone who reads the Guardian or New York Times but not, apparently, billionaire real estate barons - so the left, which in other circumstances would benefit from this discontent, loses out to a resurgence of nationalism, nativism and (in the USA, certainly, less so the UK) religion.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What is striking about the modern populist right is the ease with which corporatism is conflated with Marxism. I mean, sure, a key part of Nazi ideology was that both finance capitalism and Marxism were Jewish conspiracies, but I think even they didn't have the (ahem) chutzpah to claim that literally the same Jews were running both the banks and the socialist parties.
 
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