pattycakes_

Well-known member
With all due respect, bliss, I think the fact that you don't hear much jazz in Al Green tells me that this isn't your domain. There's no 'only' in the title of that track. If you can't see the direct lineage between jazz and funk, then I don't know what to tell you.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
depends what kinda jazz you're talking about don't it? jazz embraces a vast spread of territory

all the 70s cosmic stuff - Alice Coltrane, Pharaoh Sanders, etc - seems closest, as well as the obvious Sun Ra, and electric Miles

@pattycakes I don't think you're wrong but it's such a vague answer that it mean anything
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
I'm expecting bliss to have some knowledge of cosmic jazz, 70s Miles etc. Idk how you can even confidently write about the subject if you don't see that shit tbh.

And at the end of the day, it's just a track title.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I will say you can have jazz as a teacher and wind up making not jazz

Mtume was in the deepest afrocentric end of free jazz in the 70s and he went from that to "Juicy Fruit"
 

pattycakes_

Well-known member
This is what I saying about blissblogger expecting direct lifts from Worrell to signify influence. It's not necessary. When you hear them talk about the early days playing with gear, trying to make tunes, they were basically trying to make something that sounded totally new. You could argue that Mojo was their biggest influence and he was playing Zeppelin next to Prince next to Bowie etc etc
 

Benny B

Well-known member
I don't take him seriously but neither can I see anything to like about him, so whatever. Barty's response on twitter is spot on
 

droid

Beast of Burden
Its the vehemence that gets me. I rarely argue with anyone on twitter but the I chimed in there not necessarily because I agree or disagree with Simon but cos people I know were coming out with bizarrely vicious stuff. Knives at the ready, just waiting for the opportunity to stick em in.
 

Benny B

Well-known member
And tbf i dont even think kirk degeorgio wanted all this raked up again, but pipecock just had to @ him didnt he? Its very clear whats going on here
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It's exactly what Barty said it is. I chipped in to say so and he instantly blocked both of us lol
 

thirdform

Well-known member
If they just listened to the teacher, though, they'd end up producing jazz, surely? Like Wynton Marsalis or Courtney Pine. And clearly, something else has come out as the end-product - in Detroit's case. So they are listening to multiple teachers, or just playing truant.

There's loads of 70s and 80s black music that has nothing to do with jazz. Dancehall. Electro.

I don't hear much jazz in Al Green. The jazz in James Brown is the occasional horn solo; the rhythm fundamentals of the innovation he contributed is if anything anti-jazz. This approaching man-machine energy.

I could go on...
imho, You need to listen to the rhythms of dr. Lonnie Smith (before 1970 mind) or Weldon Irvine. That's the jaz element in electro. It's highly reconfigured, but something like this is totally a sublation of hardbop and jazz funk rhythms.


It isn't about direct borrowings but a percussive headspace. for instance electro can never sound like balkan folk music in 7/8 or 2/9, simply cos those sorts of rhythms aren't prominent in most jazz.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
the music is dire. some of the worst music ever made in my opinion. but the book is great.
ok, Kirk Degiorgio.

That's the funny thing about him. He's prime hardcore-jungle audience (in the way the detroit boys could never be) but could never fully surrender.

It's also why he can make melodically pleasant, aesthetically elegant techno but could never get as funky as Jay Denham, D-knox, Chance Mcdermut etc...
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Degiorgio became a kind of personification of a particular mindset for Simon and Woebot.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
That religious veneration of noble black artistic endeavour, which is what that quote was having a dig at
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Lol at the clasped hands piety of 'the black art form that is techno music'. This is exactly why these people needed shooting then and it's why they still need shooting now
calm down mate.

Exactly, you can't divorce it from its context. I keep saying, this stuff functioned as a desperately needed intervention into the debate.
calm down mate. There was no debate.

Where did the hardcore continuum end up? James Blake, for crying out loud.

Look I like Simon, I don't see eye-to-eye with him on some things, but I can deal with that because I read him as a polemicist.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
That religious veneration of noble black artistic endeavour, which is what that quote was having a dig at
yes, but Kirk's influences are basically 85% the same as the hardcore-jungle audience. As can be seen with the more soulful direction of dnb after 1996.

This is a problem of British musical patriotism but we don't want to talk about that.

And Matt is a different dude to Simon. They aren't even in the same ballpark.

Matt is much more appreciative of detroit techno, in a way Simon is not.
 
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