luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Why are you saying calm down exactly? I've got a feeling you might be misreading something here. Maybe missing a bit of context?
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Why are you saying calm down exactly? I've got a feeling you might be misreading something here. Maybe missing a bit of context?
Cos the only ever looking to Black America attitude is archetypical of the wigger, which is endemic to both sides of this debate.

Simon tries to disavow techno and graft his post-punk values onto jungle, which is why he abandons the genre after 97, which ofc was a failed endeavour from the outset.

It is techno that is the truest air to post-punk, not Jungle.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
As numerous older members of the forum have noted with indulgent frustration you often get confused about things because you're young and you don't appreciate the historical situation. Techno was positioned as noble black art for the sophisticated dancefloor. Hardcore was noise trash for ecstasy delinquents.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
So the polemic was about reversing this value judgement and elevating the grubby prole trash above the sleek industrial art object from Detroit.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Read my post carefully. Kirk could never be a detroit kid. he'd have to be an Italo gash fan for a start, and ignore a lot of 80s boogie.

It's all so much backtracking.

The fact is, stuff like Ramp Dailylight is not just tunes for the KDG types, it's also our lineage.

British interpretations, you see?
 

luka

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Staff member
No, I don't. I've got no idea what you mean. No one was accusing degeorgio of being from Detroit! He was being pilloried for his position as a fan, not as an artist. No one ever listened to or bothered to criticise his music.
 

luka

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Staff member
He was used by Simon and Matthew as a stand in for a particular kind of white European fan of black music.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
As numerous older members of the forum have noted with indulgent frustration you often get confused about things because you're young and you don't appreciate the historical situation. Techno was positioned as noble black art for the sophisticated dancefloor. Hardcore was noise trash for ecstasy delinquents.
that's just not true though. plenty of nosebleed techno got played at places like Knowledge, eurobeat 2000 etc. the problem is Simon's view of techno stems from the wire magazine, not places like The Orbit in Moreley.

In fact, Kirk DeGeorgio's s tunes hardly, hardly got played in any sets, unless ambient techno. he didn't have the funk, the drive. He is just a student, he can't dance.

Listen to any Dave Clarke peaktime set and tell me where the Kirk tunes are.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
No, I don't. I've got no idea what you mean. No one was accusing degeorgio of being from Detroit! He was being pilloried for his position as a fan, not as an artist. No one ever listened to or bothered to criticise his music.
well if you get paid to write about this shit it's on you to make your criticisms informed.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I'm sorry I just dont understand where you're coming from
Britain is (was?) musically segregated. The type of people who were freewheeling people who went between white post-punk and Black American imports generally ended up being people like Dave Clarke or Andrew Weatherall, playing nosebleed electro and techno.

Someone like Kirk Degiorgio has more in common with the LTJ Bukem/4 hero lot than both sides would like to admit.

That's why when he starts praising 4hero as 'more to them than a rave band' he's not only dissing Jungle, but offering a backhanded compliment (negging in todays lingo) finally you caught up! Took you some time.

He couldn't do that with Dave Clarke or Weatherall because they didn't follow the rules of musical segregation so prominent in 80s Britain.

Incidentally, this is why Kingsuk Biswas (Bedouin Ascent) made better music than Kirk, even though ambient techno. because he was also a freewheeler.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
what irritates people about techno is that in some senses it is a music without discernable location, that it is communistic and proletarian in its sound sources... or should I say, it is the universal sound of machines, which all workers are subject to.

That's why Kirk always have to reaffirm Black America, and it's also why Pipecock adopts the anti-European attitude so typical of White Americans.

If your job or your hobby depends on anti-racism, then you in some senses do not want openings to think beyond race to open up. This is why I say Matt is far more appreciate of detroit techno, in his writeup for his forcefield mix he poses this question in a thoughtful way, by posing detroit techno as a black Artform which attempts to think beyond race, beyond the soil. Same as Kodwo.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Matt loves Detroit. He was the one who got me into it. But he still used to take the piss out of Degeorgio, although he came to regret it and later made friends with him.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Your last post I can follow. That makes sense to me. But the other stuff I think you're Missing the thrust of the polemic. It was all to do with the critical discourse, and nothing really to do with dance floors. It was about establishing hardcore as worthy of serious critical appraisal and esteem. And you have to be quite violent to achieve the space for that.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I like Degiorgio, I think he's got a valuable perspective, but he's too hamstrung by western melodic traditions, he needs to listen to more Pakistani sufi blokes then he will feel the funk in different ways and truly understand it.
 
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