The Culture War

[constant escape]

the idea is that being gay is supposed to a universal outside the sways of culture and politics. Which is essentially what you're saying, but the 'status quo' remark suggests something about dominant ideology, and being gay isnt ideological.

True, but unfortunately being tolerant of those who are gay is largely ideological. At least in the case of those who don't identify as anything other than hetero, no?

 

[linebaugh]

True, but unfortunately being tolerant of those who are gay is largely ideological. At least in the case of those who don't identify as anything other than hetero, no?

thats not the fault of gay people. if your homophobic and a gay man gets hired on at your office you can just quit

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Do you have an issue with any church refusing to marry a gay couple, so long as they can just go to city hall and get a slip?

no, but if it does it should be required to give up its tax exempt status and any other legal benefits a religious organization gets

believe what you want but you don't get to have it both ways in the public sphere

 

[linebaugh]

The issue isn't "being gay," it's "what you do with gay," and any attempt at an answer will come from values—values that are constructed and culture. The only universal is that there have been and always will be guys who wanted to fuck girls, guys who wanted to fuck guys, and guys who wanted to fuck girls and guys.

in the context of the article being discussed it is absolutley 'being gay.' What is a lgbtq rally but a celebration of being gay? And even if it is a political rally its usually with the end of 'allow me to be openly gay.'

 

[linebaugh]

no it wouldnt gus youre being ridiculous

 

[linebaugh]

This is an opinion based on personal values, it's an ideology, sorry. I support it but it's an ideology.

then youre definition of ideology is so broad its useless in conversation.

 

[linebaugh]

I'm literally not, as soon as the majority of a country can democratically decide for churches what their religious beliefs and rituals are, it's all over.

thats not what he said. he never said churches wouldnt be allowed to practice. its not like gigantic anti-gay marriage mega churches are strapped for cash any way

 

[constant escape]

thats not the fault of gay people. if your homophobic and a gay man gets hired on at your office you can just quit

True, and I hope I didn't come across as implying it was their fault.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Legal equality enforced at the church level would threaten all those permissions

you can't legally murder people because your religious beliefs compel you to

there is a line somewhere of what's tolerable in a religious exemption

legalized religious murder is obviously a reductio ad absurdum, but that's what you've been doing here as well, so

 

[linebaugh]

Sorry, I'm being rude, but you've substituted all churches' protections for specifically "gigantic anti-gay marriage mega churches with lots of money."

that was an off handed comment. in general, I dont think losing tax benefits for anti gay churches is going to dramatically decrease the existence of them. it will lessen them sure, I dont see how thats a problem, there is no such thing as state action that is completely efficient and smooth

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Compelled action != prohibited action

compelled != incentivized in the name of public interest

 

[linebaugh]

hes gone

 

[linebaugh]

dont worry boys I took screen shots and Im sending them all to his employer

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

dont worry boys I took screen shots and Im sending them all to his employer

seriously tho @suspendedreason I hear your position on religious freedom

I don't agree with it - or, I hold other values much higher - but it's a reasonable argument - albeit much less reasonable when applied to private businesses as it sometimes (usually?) is

which I felt that whole bit comparing "TERF rallies" to LGBT pride really wasn't

 

[constant escape]

Padraigs earlier point about critiquing neoliberalism is a damned fine line, and it will continue to get finer.

I'm with @suspendedreason in that I feel the need to put distance between myself and the growing neoliberal/liberal/globalist/green/woke/capitalist orthodoxy, in order to get a wider picture, but without abandoning socially progressive beliefs, beliefs that seem to be gaining momentum, or at least are experiencing a surge in mainstream expression.

Unless he would disagree, and claim he is doing something else.

And ultimately, I believe its a more promising hegemony than the one its overthrowing.

 

[constant escape]

Hence the emphasis I place on the difference between heterodox and negorthodox. It should be possible to exit the orthodoxy without being clumped together with those who are directly opposed to the orthodoxy, but the whole thing is quite nebulous.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Padraigs earlier point about critiquing neoliberalism is a damned fine line, and it will continue to get finer.

tbc I said liberal cultural hegemony, not neoliberalism which is irredeemable

I think it's good to critique and challenge any kind of hegemony, even one whose values I largely - not entirely - agree with

I do think you and especially gus make that liberal (or woke or whatever you want to call it) cultural hegemony out to be much more hegemonic than it actually is

i.e. when gus says - well he deleted it but when he was talking about hostile workplaces, my immediate obvious response is "oh, you mean like women, minorities and queer people - anyone outside white, male, heteronormativity - have always experienced?"

this country still has a massive wealth gap, trans etc people still experience violence and suicide at enormous rates, etc etc

put against those stark realities, it's hard to get too worked up over complaints about the liberal media and wrongthink being castigated at politically correct workplaces

having said that, again, those complaints aren't a priori invalid

and it's not like the "left" is infallible

for example here's a pretty good video by one of more astute, self-aware, cultural studies (I think his actual background is linguistics) online left types I know of critiquing one of the modern left's common failings in the culture war

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

but the same time let's not get it twisted - the balance of real, especially material, power is largely the same as it was before the rise of "wokeness"

in critiquing liberal cultural hegemony let's not 1) overrate it 2) use that critique to reproduce a different, even shittier hegemony

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the answer, as always, and as Jack Saint gets into in the video (tho he doesn't say the actual word), is intersectionality, to understand the intersection of cultural and economic power relations - not that I claim such a perfect understanding - and how they work together to produce a particular hegemony

when you don't do that is when you run to problems either (from progressive POV) mistaking identity politics on their own as liberatory or (from a reactionary POV) overrating the power of "woke" orthodoxy and get on that slippery slope to casting the actually dominant group as victims

 

[constant escape]

Yeah I shouldn't have casually put words in your mouth there. I usually write it as (neo)liberalism, as a sort of merging of economic neoliberalism and social liberalism, although perhaps the joint combo needs a better word.

And yeah I often err on the side of exaggerating the rising hegemony, but I should always be more careful.

but the same time let's not get it twisted - the balance of real, especially material, power is largely the same as it was before the rise of "wokeness"

Part of my skepticism is that the socially liberal values could effectively be mimed by those who are primarily interested in preserving power, under this label or that. That said, maybe that isn't as big a factor as I treat it as being.