padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Not by all accounts
sure. I was generalizing. you're more expert in 20th C. British history than I am, I'm sure.

my point was just that greatness in leaders is historically attributed usually to those who lead in times of crisis, not times of plenty
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
(tho also, I wouldn't doubt Atlee shared some of the same prejudices as a person of his time, but he didn't - unlike Churchill - do a vast amount of actual damage as a colonial administrator. and no one's making fawning biopics about Atlee starring Gary Oldman.)
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I feel that foreign policy is the undoing of all "great" leaders. Corbyn is kinda like an inverted mirror to Blair and it led him to make terrible errors of judgement (the Skirpal case illustrating this most clearly).
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
is it fair what people say about blair and clinton getting an easy ride cos the world economy was cruising?
If you look at a list of the domestic achievements and think about the seriousness and tenacity with which they pursued these goals - they seem markedly a cut above all those who've followed.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
There was a bit of vision there beyond just coasting on a strong economy, is what I was trying to say.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It's good that we have the whole range of opinion from the out and out hero worship of my good friends craner and Barty, to wild eyed denunciations and demonisation from washyourhands with Danny offering measured praise and Padraig measured criticism. Covering all bases. I've heard the name Atlee but I don't know who he was. Likewise I've seen the name Skirpal but again, don't know who he was. Politics forum.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
The Russian ex-intelligence guy and his daughter that the Russians tried to murder, only they bungled it and merely hospitalized them but accidentally killed some random English woman.

Edit: Skripal, not Skirpal.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
The Russian ex-intelligence guy and his daughter that the Russians tried to murder, only they bungled it and merely hospitalized them but accidentally killed some random English woman.

Edit: Skripal, not Skirpal.
Oh yeah, I remember that story.
 

Leo

Well-known member
one of Clinton's characteristics (if that's the right word) was his enduring high poll numbers to the question of "cares about people like me". through scandal and GOP attack, he knew how to play the empathy card, "I feel your pain" went a long way. might have been legit. then again, there are many reasons why he was known as "slick willie". I only know Blair from a far distance but never had the sense the masses over there felt he particularly "cared about people like me".
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
I think that's fair. He could come over as very plastic, but he was safe. John Smith, leader of the party 'til he died of a heart attack (95?)looked like a bank manager. One part of New Labour was projecting safety, and to some degree, aspiration. "We' re quite OK with money and business" - which was itself an evolution away from the mad infighting which the Left of the mid-80s.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
This is a brilliant documentary on the last gasp of Militant as they're eclipsed by the incoming Blairites:
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
The above features a young Militant member talking bout "cars that run on water" if anyone needs motivating to watch. Though it's mostly sympathetic I found.

Also an essential watch:
 

WashYourHands

Active member
one of Clinton's characteristics (if that's the right word) was his enduring high poll numbers to the question of "cares about people like me". through scandal and GOP attack, he knew how to play the empathy card, "I feel your pain" went a long way. might have been legit. then again, there are many reasons why he was known as "slick willie". I only know Blair from a far distance but never had the sense the masses over there felt he particularly "cared about people like me".
1mins 30secs to 2mins 20secs-ish

 

WashYourHands

Active member
It's good that we have the whole range of opinion from the out and out hero worship of my good friends craner and Barty, to wild eyed denunciations and demonisation from washyourhands with Danny offering measured praise and Padraig measured criticism. Covering all bases. I've heard the name Atlee but I don't know who he was. Likewise I've seen the name Skirpal but again, don't know who he was. Politics forum.
I prefer blinky-eyed, tick-faced, magus pls
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
I only know Blair from a far distance but never had the sense the masses over there felt he particularly "cared about people like me".
UK politics is far less based on the personal charisma of the candidate than the U.S.

even with Boris + Corbyn, you're still voting primarily for the party/policy rather than the person

the emotional connection with voters is much more important for a presidential than a prime ministerial candidate

whereas the ability to manage your own party is more important for a PM (not that it's unimportant for a president, but less directly hands-on)

as far as the legitimacy of Clinton's empathy, I'd guess like most things about him it's complicated

clearly he has a great ability to make people feel like he cares about them and their problems

I'd guess some of it's innate, but at least some of it is having grown up in tougher circumstances than most presidential candidates, and having to claw his way up a bit

Caesar was the probably the greatest political empathizer in history, and he famously grew up in the the Suburra (a slum of ancient Rome) in an apartment building his family owned, and was a self-made man by Roman political elite standards
 
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WashYourHands

Active member
Didn’t he slaughter thousands and thousands of Gauls? Bet they felt well empathised with ;)

Jokes aside, you’ve dropped the need for lockdown Romanitas and to rewatch I Claudius again soon.
 

Leo

Well-known member
as far as the legitimacy of Clinton's empathy, I'd guess like most things about him it's complicated

clearly he has a great ability to make people feel like he cares about them and their problems

I'd guess some of it's innate, but at least some of it is having grown up in tougher circumstances than most presidential candidates, and having to claw his way up a bit
yup, absolutely. going on Arsenio Hall's talkshow in dark sunglasses and playing sax, leveraging the whole Blues Brothers vibe (countdown until Version posts the YT clip...), connecting with both white and black audiences.

yet he's also clearly a wheeler and dealer, lots of fellow legislators felt they'd trust him as far as they could throw him. remember reading one politician say when you got done dealing with Bill, the first thing you did was check to make sure you still have your wallet. trump's modus is that of a divider, stirring anger and fear, while Clinton went the opposite way with empathy. not saying they are 100% equal on the con man scale, but not worlds apart. Clinton had/has a huge ego, like all pols, but not trump's level of narcissism. and I'm not even getting into his relationship with Epstein. slick willie.
 
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