Resistance is Futile.

constant escape

winter withered, warm
Ahh, similar to what "outsider art" is? Just not appealing to a bureaucratized methodology? And yeah, that kind of paying your dues to the pantheon of venerable/dead figures. I mean, I'm all for referencing the dead people - I just do it all online, on my own.

Maybe I just hear anti-intellectualism as an opposition to serious thought, but maybe my usage of "serious" betrays something about me. As if serious necessarily means sober, as opposed to intoxicated.
 

luka

Well-known member
As I say I don't want onto refight old battles, a
We can all move on, but I'm not having Barty demonised either.
 

constant escape

winter withered, warm
Understood. Don't want to put others through a stale dialogue, or battle, just because it has fresh elements for me. Plus, the history here I'm not privy to.

But yeah: resistance, I believe, is futile by this point. But looking forward and attempting to pave a road might never be futile.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
What I really value is both banter and making stuff up. So peak banter was also the time of feminine pressure, time barrier, dematerialisation, etc etc. By far and away the most creatively fecund and energised period in the history of the forum. The only time the forum has begun to live up to its potential.

Not that I want to pick at the scab at all, (actually can't stress that enough) however, this needs to be made clear. I'm pretty sure the peak banter padraig (u.s.) is talking about is the much more recent stuff earlier this year which lead to barty's departure. The same banter that lead to baboon2004 leaving. The same banter that had beagle being inexcusably cruel. The same banter that had third hounded. The same banter that had the tags awash with the nastiest sniping. I played my part and was mean at times. And we all know what else went on. A toxic time, which has since passed and things are a lot more amicable now. But if we're honest with ourselves, there's still an underlying sense that it lurks under the surface. At the time of dematerialisation, there was a much more positive vibe all round. Wayyyy less antagonism going on. Sure there was always bits here and there, some of it funny and good natured. But the gangs were less palpable and the air was less murky. It feels like we're moving back towards that, but it requires nurturing. Less negativity on the whole, even in the face of the catastrophic climate the world has unravelled itself into. This alone is reason to make an effort. How many other places offer what this place does? We can do it, but it takes effort. Not to swipe at the low hanging fruit. Not to to win allies just for protection. Not to cause unnecessary bullshit. And don't worry I'm fully aware of my part in causing tensions with my stupidities. But I'm trying to learn from those mistakes, move forward and put in what I hope to get out. No one wanted barty to leave. He didn't need to. Nor did baboon2004. Everyone has something to bring to the table here. Some shine brighter than others but everyone has their place at the table and if you don't like someone then best try to ignore and not interact rather than make it your job to run them away. There's even an ignore function. I don't want it all to be lovey dovey and everyone get on and agree at all times. The constructive tensions are often an opportunity to learn something. But if we want this place to live up to its potential, it takes work. And sometimes that work goes against your own instincts of what's right. Possibly an over-earnest post, but fuck it. It's how I feel.
 

pattycakes_

Can turn naughty
As for anti intellectualism. My own is rooted in how I see the education system. So it's more about the establishment than actual intellectualism.. How segregated it is. Tiered to maintain power structures. How it works to propagate 'the Agenda.' Which is simply about power, and maintaining those power structures. Ever since I read The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto, which should really have the American removed from the title, (because while the system was developed in the 20th c. by the most powerful men in America (Rockefeller, Carnegie etc.) It was globally exported, adopted and remains predominant all over the world) after reading that, all my paranoias and suspicions, starting back when I was at school, were confirmed. You really have zero need for conspiracies when you read that shit. eg. School and education (and figures who represent those things) are purposely made to feel boring. Especially to the lower rungs of society. It takes a strong mind to break out of that programming and become auto didactic. Dissensus folk don't suffer that problem but at least 75% of the rest of the world's population do. We need to educate ourselves and each other. People making people feel bad because they're not on their level makes them part of the problem, imo. Not knowing something can be easily remedied. This competitive side of intellectualism is also planned, encouraged and ramped up by the system. And I'm not asking for people to put in major time. But if you see someone getting a bit wayward, drop an authors name, a link, throw them a bone, man. Whatever. Making people feel stupid or wrong doesn't help in the end. It just feeds the ego and increases the divide.

The top levels of schooling are just as planned and manufactured as the lower. Ivy league schools for one, get huge chunks of their funding from the military. Its a business. Not thinking I'm blowing any minds with this. I just feel it's key to understanding why people develop skepticism. The education system is the root of the mind programming arm of power. What better than to take a growing mind away from its nurturing environment for its most important developmental years and fill it at random intervals full of info it will maybe use 20% of. Conspiracy thinking, right? In Chris Hedges Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle, the first chapter goes at great lengths to cover all of this and more, and I'd say is compulsory reading for anyone who wants to really get into the nitty gritty. Hedges is probably my main guy for all things power related. Him and Cornel West are good friends and have lots of great talks covering all of this on YouTube. All in simple jargon free language that anyone can understand. And they do it from the heart, 100% cheese free. The two books I mentioned above alone, are enough for anyone to understand why the established school system is ultimately a net negative for society. But we're stuck with it for now. And I know it's not all bad, and there are exceptions, like Finland for eg and alternative school systems out there, but ultimately its up to us. Jargon, obscure references, critical theory, they muddy the water. They're there to keep the proles out. They help with certain things, but I'd really like to ask those of you well versed in them, did they really improve your life to the point where you would say it's crucial to understand them? Genuine naive question. And to follow on from that, do they make you happy?

I think the auto didactic thing comes down to this: reading and getting outside and living a life. Having experiences. If you're lucky, you grow up around wise, inspiring people. Or you had that one teacher who loved their job. Or you discovered the library. You developed an appetite.

Aaanyway it's late so I'll just wrap it up with this, I'm not anti school/education/intellectualism at all. It's just important to learn how it really works. How it changes you. What it tries to take away from you and how to resist that. Self educating is where its at. Obviously for the really technical stuff it's hard to beat university. But there are people in the 3rd world who figured out how to engineer wind powered generators to feed pumps to irrigate their fields from watching YouTube tutorials. Just saying. Although I'd probably be a bit wary of a heart surgeon who did the same. Anyway that's my lack of sleep fuelled pov.
 
Last edited:

constant escape

winter withered, warm
Great stuff, and some new names + titles for me to look up. I could totally align with many of your points here.

They help with certain things, but I'd really like to ask those of you well versed in them, did they really improve your life to the point where you would say it's crucial to understand them? Genuine naive question. And to follow on from that, do they make you happy?

The dialectical method is still huge for me. Before I heard of it, I just had a way of trying to prove myself wrong (break it in the lab, rather than in the field) - but all the discourse really did help elaborate it, even if much of it is still nested in theory that I have a tough time hacking through. Another example, as I mentioned earlier in this thread I believe, was the discourse on metamodernism: I can honestly attribute much of my sanity, even zen, to some of this discourse. Happiness is almost a non-starter for me.

But ultimately I would say those (dialectics, metamodernism) are exceptional instances. Sure, these things have the potential to connect with someone deeply, but it sure seems like they rarely do. Instead, it seems like much of it is churned through and memorized primarily as a kind of professionalized social game, or in the interest of intelligence signaling.

And yeah, from an elite/control perspective, why would you want the riff-raff to actually understand that they're the riff-raff? It makes sense, which can be said to make it all the more unfortunate. Especially when you factor in the ambitious teachers who aren't able to maneuver within the banal confines of curriculum. It seems like only the visionary teachers manage.

Hence why I appreciate hubs like this, and many of the channels on Youtube that package otherwise impenetrable/abstruse discourse into manageable videos that successfully secure the attention and imagination of the viewer.
 

luka

Well-known member
I'm not going to read that patty cos I don't want to respond to it and carry on. But also because it's very very long!
 

craner

Beast of Burden
The fact that he was asked to write a book and given a large advance to do so solely on the basis of the quality of his posts here says it all. That would never happen to anyone else here in a million years, let's face it.

That might also have been motivation to leave. A project like that doesn't allow for such distractions and, apart from anything else, this forum has a history of losing people to success.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
really, I just want to be able to go to the one place on the Internet I really care about (super dumb, but true) and have it be free of unreality.

Please stay. I enjoy that there are posters of your caliber on here. It lends a more earthbound credence to the place that I know I can't do without.
 

entertainment

Well-known member
What I really value is both banter and making stuff up. So peak banter was also the time of feminine pressure, time barrier, dematerialisation, etc etc. By far and away the most creatively fecund and energised period in the history of the forum. The only time the forum has begun to live up to its potential.

Yeah but you know when you're saying it like that 'making things up', you're poking a bit a people because it sounds conspiratorial. Obviously those things were bound by a shared sense of something real, otherwise it wouldn't have been exciting at all.
 

luka

Well-known member
well obviously. so lets not characterise my thinking as dangerous and conspiratorial and as something that must be relentlessly attacked, derailed, trolled, etc. i'll just get on with it and people who want to join in can join in and have fun.
 

chava

Well-known member
I think the auto didactic thing comes down to this: reading and getting outside and living a life. Having experiences. If you're lucky, you grow up around wise, inspiring people. Or you had that one teacher who loved their job. Or you discovered the library. You developed an appetite.

Aaanyway it's late so I'll just wrap it up with this, I'm not anti school/education/intellectualism at all. It's just important to learn how it really works. How it changes you. What it tries to take away from you and how to resist that. Self educating is where its at. Obviously for the really technical stuff it's hard to beat university. But there are people in the 3rd world who figured out how to engineer wind powered generators to feed pumps to irrigate their fields from watching YouTube tutorials. Just saying. Although I'd probably be a bit wary of a heart surgeon who did the same. Anyway that's my lack of sleep fuelled pov.

No doubt the Corona crisis has shown that universities and even lower education are under extreme pressure from online courses. Youtube and audio podcast is a revolution regarding knowledge as most people are not really that avid readers and probably learn or get engaged better otherwise.
 

luka

Well-known member
i think the things which are making co-existence untenable on dissensus, and it has become untenable, the place is broken, are the same things which are making co-existence untenable everywhere. the centre really cannot hold. we're all flying apart from one another into our own private madnesses.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
No doubt the Corona crisis has shown that universities and even lower education are under extreme pressure from online courses. Youtube and audio podcast is a revolution regarding knowledge as most people are not really that avid readers and probably learn or get engaged better otherwise.
Some level of resources and credentials are required to set up a new school or university, whereas absolutely anyone can put a video on YouTube, and absolutely anyone frequently does. As a result, a large number of people think you can cure cancer by eating almonds and drinking hot water with a slice of lemon in it.

Maybe luka thinks this is a good thing. Obviously I'm not in that camp myself.
 
It lends a more earthbound credence to the place that I know I can't do without.


Dionysus and Apollo. I remember saying this to someone railing into either chin-strikers or hipsters Or posers. They all provide necessary energy for an evolving and interesting scene
 

luka

Well-known member
in theory that's true. and pushing against one another has generated enrgy in the past as well as fuelling tensions but for the last year or more its been broken. the suspicions and paranoias and resentments have overiddden anything useful and i cant see any way to fix it. there's people here i really want to talk to but every time i try some outbreak of madness happens. i just want to talk to my pretend friends without getting heckled and accused of withcraft.
 

luka

Well-known member
i was having a really nice time on this thread and thinking oh maybe this place still has potential and lo and behold its madness again!
 
Top