Western Individualism

constant escape

winter withered, warm
Well I can't say I would subscribe to Peterson, but I can still see that point. It may be impossible to organize/optimize your own ontology/machinery as if it were independent, but you can start to, no? It seems to be programatic without being dogmatic, presenting a manner of solution rather than a specific solution - but then again I haven't read his stuff nor inquired deeply into his personal theories.

I mean, the "clean up your house" sensibility seems to boil down to "sharpen your tools before you go hacking away" or, alternatively and less violently, "refine your plan before you execute it". I don't want to conflate this with his opinions, or otherwise put words in his mouth, but I can imagine some effective and valid interpretations of the "clean up your house" imperative/program.

Inasfar as that two step program involves separating an inside and an outside, it can be dubious. It risks reifying ones identity by tightening incidental components to it.

For a spiritual take on individualism, might the problem be our fixation on our identity? What we lump together when we conceive of ourselves? How much of that lump is incidental junk?

Is there a line between one and one's preferences/beliefs? One and one's material/corporal manifestation? Could we argue that one is a point, a singularity, and the content of one's identity is all superstructural, scaffolding?

In considering one's identity, it is as if one is arbitrating the territory of where they end and where their world begins. How much of this territory is the cortex, and how much is the core? The core, as I argue above, is a point, and the cortex, the bulk, is junk.
 

constant escape

winter withered, warm
The debate was entertaining. There wasn't much to take away, from what I remember. Peterson conceded that capitalism incentivizes exploitation, but argued that it is still better than any previous mode of society, giving stats about poverty reduction and so on. Zizek took his usual jabs at identity politics I believe - but I could be wrong. Think they ended up agreeing on a lot. Peterson asking him why he doesn't market his ideas as Zizekism, and why he still self-applies the label of communist. I forget the answer.

In as far as entertainment goes, it was on the more informative and though-provoking end, for what that's worth. I mean the whole thing was presented in a spectacular, agonistic way.
 

Stinkyboy

Member
There was a scene in that Herzog film I watched the other day where he spoke to a scientist or historian in North Korea and when he asked him what his personal feelings were he just spoke of The People and The People's feelings. It was really bizarre and I couldn't work out whether it was conscious or unconscious on his part. Whether that was just how he thought due to the political system, whether that was how he felt or whether he was scared of singling himself out on film.
It’s a Confucian thing I live in Japan , and the natives almost always , spontaneously refer to themselves as the collective “We Japanese” or, when discussing the merits of the group, they include themselves : “ We Japanese will win “. When a suspect is officially charged and deemed guilty of a crime, he or she loses the honorific social term - ( Mr or Ms) and are rendered a non person ( outside the group )
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
Dividualism, rather than hyper individualism, is a concept contemporary western society has a hard time conceiving or understanding.

I grew up surrounded by coal and steel union reps, men and women. Clydebank ship builders and Notts/Sheffield coal union rallies were more akin to catholic saint Days in Europe, the mural banners being borderline sacred. The backbone of so much of that collective unity has been incessantly winnowed out of these communities, it’s a national travesty. And look what replaced chunks of the latter.... smack, Thatcher and eventually Brexit.
 

Stinkyboy

Member
Dividualism, rather than hyper individualism, is a concept contemporary western society has a hard time conceiving or understanding.

I grew up surrounded by coal and steel union reps, men and women. Clydebank ship builders and Notts/Sheffield coal union rallies were more akin to catholic saint Days in Europe, the mural banners being borderline sacred. The backbone of so much of that collective unity has been incessantly winnowed out of these communities, it’s a national travesty. And look what replaced chunks of the latter.... smack, Thatcher and eventually Brexit.
When you see all the frenzied protesting and the toe curling narcissism on display, looking at things from Asia ( and I’m sure Asian people think this too) it’s quite easy to arrive at the conclusion that the Western Project has come to an end
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It is very difficult for people to resist relentless images of calorific foods, says the Obesity Health Alliance.

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