John Cale
- Thread starter version
- Start date
-
- Tags
- what's welsh for zen
jenks
thread death
The live versions I think even more so
version
Well-known member
Leo
Well-known member
Reed was the more tradition rock songwriter who wanted to sell records, play arenas and be a rock star, while Cale was more the modern classical/drone/avant driver who wanted to go more weird/abrasive/out.
luka
Well-known member
archetypal dyads
i come back to coltrane/davis a lot and tend to view it as transcendence/immanence. i think a lot about wiley/dizzee too. such different careers. one inwardly directed the other outwardly oriented. needless to say i relate to wiley. do you form these dyads in your head too? got any examples?
dissensus.com
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
a giant, obviously
up there with Arthur Russell as far as straddling (and seamlessly fusing) the avant-garde and popular worlds
the Velvet Underground is my favorite band ever - or tied with Spacemen 3 - specifically the years with Cale
we may have touched it in the Hassell thread but like Hassell his avant-garde background was of the absolute highest order
key early Fluxus figure, worked with Cage, playing with La Monte Young's Theatre of Eternal Music
some of the pre-VU stuff he did either alone, or with Tony Conrad or Sterling Morrison is really good
clearly influenced by his work with Young, as well as the other usual NY minimalists, especially Riley
and some of it is on par with Young/Reich/Riley/Glass, I think
MASSIVE swelling drone organ, very Riley meets Young
more kind of Penderecki meets tape manipulation
up there with Arthur Russell as far as straddling (and seamlessly fusing) the avant-garde and popular worlds
the Velvet Underground is my favorite band ever - or tied with Spacemen 3 - specifically the years with Cale
we may have touched it in the Hassell thread but like Hassell his avant-garde background was of the absolute highest order
key early Fluxus figure, worked with Cage, playing with La Monte Young's Theatre of Eternal Music
some of the pre-VU stuff he did either alone, or with Tony Conrad or Sterling Morrison is really good
clearly influenced by his work with Young, as well as the other usual NY minimalists, especially Riley
and some of it is on par with Young/Reich/Riley/Glass, I think
MASSIVE swelling drone organ, very Riley meets Young
more kind of Penderecki meets tape manipulation
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
all of Church of Anthrax is great, especially the title track. if he and Riley were German it would be in the highest tier of the krautrock canon.
the trilogy of LPs he produced for Nico is immense - whatever the personal side they were an amazing creative team
and it's very of a piece with his oeuvre, taking non-rock + roll concepts and inserting them into a popular music context
and there was really nothing like it at the time - Chelsea Girl is mostly nice lo-fi chamber folk seemingly tailormade for Wes Anderson
and then out of nowhere Marble Index and Desertshore, all droning downer harmonium and her slow glacier of a voice
those records, along with Yoko Ono, really paved the way for female artists in avant-pop music
granted that is even more about Nico - who is massively underrated to this day - than Cale, but still
the trilogy of LPs he produced for Nico is immense - whatever the personal side they were an amazing creative team
and it's very of a piece with his oeuvre, taking non-rock + roll concepts and inserting them into a popular music context
and there was really nothing like it at the time - Chelsea Girl is mostly nice lo-fi chamber folk seemingly tailormade for Wes Anderson
and then out of nowhere Marble Index and Desertshore, all droning downer harmonium and her slow glacier of a voice
those records, along with Yoko Ono, really paved the way for female artists in avant-pop music
granted that is even more about Nico - who is massively underrated to this day - than Cale, but still
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I'm not much into his solo 70s output, which is the case for that vein of auteur 70s art rock in general
and I reckon Reed had the better solo career because he was a better songwriter - no surprise there, he was one of the greatest songwriters ever
but Cale certainly trumps him when it comes to collaborative projects, and as a producer
the true shining moment was their collaboration, the marriage of Reed's songwriting genius to Cale's avant-drone madness
tho it wasn't like, a total opposites thing
even in this pre-VU novelty record Reed made during his time as in-house songwriter at shlock label Pickwick, you can hear proto-driving drone rock
and he was well into free jazz in the early 60s, as well as studying poetry etc with Delmore Schwartz
going the other way, you have this pre-VU Cale solo piece, which sounds like "Sister Ray" if it was just a guitar
and I reckon Reed had the better solo career because he was a better songwriter - no surprise there, he was one of the greatest songwriters ever
but Cale certainly trumps him when it comes to collaborative projects, and as a producer
the true shining moment was their collaboration, the marriage of Reed's songwriting genius to Cale's avant-drone madness
tho it wasn't like, a total opposites thing
even in this pre-VU novelty record Reed made during his time as in-house songwriter at shlock label Pickwick, you can hear proto-driving drone rock
and he was well into free jazz in the early 60s, as well as studying poetry etc with Delmore Schwartz
going the other way, you have this pre-VU Cale solo piece, which sounds like "Sister Ray" if it was just a guitar
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
so this is basically true but doesn't tell the whole story
it was also about what rock music was at that point
the transition of the cultural view of rock from bullshit pop for teenagers to potentially serious Art happened during the Reed/Cale VU years
(much credit for which tbf has to go the Beatles - and also some to Yoko Ono for validating them to the art world)
they both wanted to make art and be rock stars (after a fashion, at least)
but Reed's priority was rock star>art, Cale's was the opposite. it was a vision split more than a sonic split.
as in you can hear their respective 70s solo output, which isn't terribly far apart for the most part
Reed for example still did things like "Street Hassle"
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
also I think they just hit a collaborative dead end
where do you go from "Sister Ray"? unless you want to keep making 17 minute drone rock epics, you have to pick one direction or the other
and unlike today, continuing to make 17 minute drone rock epics wasn't really a viable choice in 1968
it's a bit like the golden age of jungle, before it split into a million lesser pieces
you reach a dead end where you have to go somewhere else even if it's not as good. the musical equivalent of zugzwang.
so tho egos (mainly Reed's) were definitely involved, I just don't think there was any way they could've realistically stayed together.
if you've never heard the 1972 live performance with Nico, it's quite good, more low-key than you'd expect, and very touching
a perfect coda
as Reed says at the beginning "it took us awhile to get here"
where do you go from "Sister Ray"? unless you want to keep making 17 minute drone rock epics, you have to pick one direction or the other
and unlike today, continuing to make 17 minute drone rock epics wasn't really a viable choice in 1968
it's a bit like the golden age of jungle, before it split into a million lesser pieces
you reach a dead end where you have to go somewhere else even if it's not as good. the musical equivalent of zugzwang.
so tho egos (mainly Reed's) were definitely involved, I just don't think there was any way they could've realistically stayed together.
if you've never heard the 1972 live performance with Nico, it's quite good, more low-key than you'd expect, and very touching
a perfect coda
as Reed says at the beginning "it took us awhile to get here"
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
unfortunately living recordings of Reed/Cale VU are sparse, unlike the post-Cale period which was obsessively documented by the great Bob Quine
this is the best quality one on YT. unfortunately no viola but the guitars are pretty killer. full-on "Sister Ray".
terrible sound quality, mindblowing vibe. everyone sunglasses indoor. Nico's son sitting in on maracas and general child's enthusiasm.
this is the best quality one on YT. unfortunately no viola but the guitars are pretty killer. full-on "Sister Ray".
terrible sound quality, mindblowing vibe. everyone sunglasses indoor. Nico's son sitting in on maracas and general child's enthusiasm.
version
Well-known member
Been listening to a few of his later singles recently. They're kind of naff and I don't think much of the videos, but I like them. He just knows how to write a tune and it feels as though a bit more care goes into it than with most, even when it's just slightly odd pop stuff nobody's listening to. Catastrofuk's an appalling title though.