The Natural State

[constant escape]

Sure, I think it can serve to unalienate, to some degree, the unnatural. If we consider it something separate from the natural, then it is ultimately alien, and perhaps daunting. If, on the other hand, we consider the unnatural a function of the natural, it becomes slightly less alien, and thus viable as a route of development - but that is buying into all the above stuff about hills and valleys. That is, the "natural" as balanced, the valley, could perhaps be enhanced by detours into the unnatural, the inclines. If we step back and observe this progression, it is a sort of oscillation, up hills (through the unnatural), and down into restful valleys (return to the natural).

 

[luka]

yes but what this doesn't allow for the genuine and rational concerns about much of what is characterised as unnatural from pollution to diet coke.

 

[constant escape]

Well could we not just think of those things as the natural folded upon itself so densely, with so many layers, that it is just hardly recognizable? In that sense, the natural is just the stuff that is expressed more or less plainly, rather than manipulating its own expression.

Or maybe it has something to do with order/organization. The extremities of the organized matter (IE manmade stuff) registers as unnatural. Then again, the human brain is more organized than any other matter (as far as I know), and that is hardly considered unnatural.

 

[luka]

again, we could, and you are welcome to. but why bother?

 

[constant escape]

If you're talking about practical applications of this stuff, beyond psychic hygiene and development, I'd say the current understanding of natural/unnatural has its benefits, namely in regards to environmentalism. If we all thought that everything was natural, there would be less of a braking system for our collective tech-engine.

 

[vimothy]

Surely there's no such thing as 'unnatural'? Everything's made out of naturally occurring things. Our lifestyle isn't unnatural. It's like saying it's 'unnatural' for a chimp to use sticks and stones as tools. They've developed to the point where that's just what they do.

I dont think that's quite right, it's like a misreading if what ppl mean when they're saying unnatural. on some level everything it part of nature, therefore "natural". but it's still the case that ppl are naturally social animals and therefore existing in total isolation would be unnatural for them, for example

 

[luka]

yeah its a move you can make, in an abstract sense, and lots of people make it but a)they dont mean it and b) and it eradicates a useful if fuzzy distinction.

 

[vimothy]

its not incoherent to ask, what does it mean to be human?

 

[luka]

its not incoherent to ask, what does it mean to be human?

is that a non sequitur or have i missed something?

 

[vimothy]

it relates to how you interpret what's "natural" for humans.

 

[luka]

go on then. answer it. what does it mean to be human

 

[vimothy]

well, I cant give a full explanation of what it means to be human, but they want to make meaningful relationships with other humans, for example - that's why being locked in complete isolation is experienced as a trauma and used as a form of torture

 

[WashYourHands]

Solitary confinement is one thing. I’d recommend anyone spend 40-60 days completely alone in a remote area, living as uncluttered existence as possible during this short period.

The ego states calm, your inner critic pipes down, no small talk, focusing on the day/week/fortnight/time ahead. A really adept insight role if ever there was one.

 

[vimothy]

yeah can imagine that as a positive, initiatory experience if you are in control of it - like a form of yoga or monasticism

 

[vimothy]

I dont think that contradicts my point tho, that certain things are necessary for "human flourishing" and without which it would be difficult to be human, as we understand it

 

[constant escape]

I dont think that contradicts my point tho, that certain things are necessary for "human flourishing" and without which it would be difficult to be human, as we understand it

Do you think these things are essential, necessarily independent of socially coded/reified meanings, or do you think these things are dependent on such meanings? That is, do we need company/solidarity with others because that happens to be a value within our collective social mind, or do you think the need for company/solidarity is essential and that our collective social mind successfully expresses essential things like that?

 

[vimothy]

another fairly universal example might be the need to properly dispose of and mourn for our dead. that's "natural" in my view

 

[vimothy]

Do you think these things are essential, necessarily independent of socially coded/reified meanings, or do you think these things are dependent on such meanings? That is, do we need company/solidarity with others because that happens to be a value within our collective social mind, or do you think the need for company/solidarity is essential and that our collective social mind successfully expresses essential things like that?

I dont think the two things can be easily disentangled

 

[version]

I dont think that's quite right, it's like a misreading if what ppl mean when they're saying unnatural. on some level everything it part of nature, therefore "natural". but it's still the case that ppl are naturally social animals and therefore existing in total isolation would be unnatural for them, for example

Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier. Isolation is a better term for it in general, imo. We're not doing anything unnatural, we're just becoming more self-contained and isolated as a species.

 

[constant escape]

I guess a lot of it does boil down to belief. But at the same time, it feels like you can get to know this stuff in a way that isn't just arbitrary and relative. A sort of gnosis I guess.