Are you an atheist?

constant escape

winter withered, warm
@padraig (u.s.) But it can get people to believe what they hadn't believed, no?

The next matter is how to administer revelation, completely sober, with nothing but words, tone, and the look in your eyes.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
from the nihilist POV, its best to just avoid the question
I strongly disagree with this entire line, or in re "nihilism is just too horrible"

in the intro to Myth of Sisyphus he says its aim being to "find the means within nihilism to proceed beyond nihilism", that's always resonated with me

neither you nor I nor anyone can truly know if there is a God, or whether our lives have any kind of meaning in a cosmological sense

to truly know that we would have to be infinite beings ourselves

if you're a believer, great - you're set. if you're not, you have to find some way to proceed.

I find the idea that there is no truly knowable greater meaning and that the only certainty is death to be hugely liberating.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
of course, that's not what I would I say to a grieving family, in that example

but there are ways to proceed without resorting to uncertain fantasy of an afterlife
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Go further back
to when, the idyllic time when theistic cultures were doing so wonderfully?

and the 16th C. was definitely not "good times for most of the planet"

there are reasonable arguments for theism but "theistic cultures are better" is not one of them

[edit, following on] and even if they were, what you are going to do? make people believe what they now don't believe?

even if declining theism is a problem - which I don't agree with - you can't turn back that clock
 
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constant escape

winter withered, warm
But I can begin to feel a distinct alienation/distance from anyone who cant attest to nihilism as vimothy has, or can respect, like padraig does, a perseverance within it.

"find the means within nihilism to proceed beyond nihilism" is a good way to put it, I hadn't encountered that before. Finding some kind of positive ideology taking nihilism as its point of departure. Secular or not, but rehabilitative in nature. Ideally without any koolaid sales pitches, or at least minimally intrusive ones.

Even tougher when the nihilism doesn't take to science, either.
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
You have to survive life first. When the threshold lurking in that phrase has been reached, passed and processed, proceeding beyond nihilism is one sane response.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
a perseverance within it
idk if perseverance is exactly the right word, tho perseverance in the face of alienation is included

perseverance in the face of alienation is the de facto existential condition

that's why Myth of Sisyphus famously begins by saying the only philosophical problem worth considering is suicide

if you're not going to persevere, everything else is moot

Kierkegaard got right up to the moment of alienation, and then handwaved it with the leap of faith i.e. "b/c God"

that option wasn't available to Camus, Sartre, etc so they had to find some other means to proceed
 

constant escape

winter withered, warm
Perhaps there are, but (somewhat lazily) refer to the radical extremity of it as catch-all. The absence of meaning, or a value system devoid of value.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
The absence of meaning, or a value system devoid of value
that is a caricature tho. it is, as you say, lazy.

in this case it's not the absence of all meaning, merely denial of the possibility of knowing if greater meaning exists in a cosmological sense

not to create a strawman, but it's like a lazy, basic "well how can atheists have morality" argument

well, by choosing to act morally, as evidenced by the fact there have always been people who didn't believe in or doubted God yet still did just that

the idea that people need a god or gods to keep them in check is the depressing one, I think

and it has, to say the least, a very uneven historical track record
 

boxedjoy

Well-known member
today i wrote a poem for a man whose wife has told him she wants to divorce him and he read it and burst into tears cos i expressed it so amazingly and powerfully and with so much beauty and truth. he'll probbaly show her the poem and save their marriage. that's all you have to do. sit with the emotions, articulate them and aestheticise them. you are a natural. i know from your dancefloor thread. i'll write you a reference.
this is a real kindness, thank you
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
how can a priest - of any kind - offer comfort or hope, or anything, to non-believers
I think the most miserable sound I've ever heard is a congregation of obviously non-religious mourners attempting to sing hymns at a Church of England funeral service.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Yeah man, if we all just believed then we could go back to a cultural phase as peaceful and enlightened as the 16th century.
depends doesn't it. the 16th century is able to contain both Leonardo Da Vinci and William Shakespeare. obvioulsy you will always have people who think Da Vinci and Shakespeare trumps Netflix for everyone, in the scale of values.
 
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