Election 2020

Leo

Leo

Well-known member
suspended said:
With the caveats:
  • The number of "evil racist mofos" is actually incredibly small, a fraction of a percentage point even by the measurements of Southern Poverty Law Center (far from an unbiased entity)
  • There isn't a huge different in "quality" of person between D's and R's, and since people pretty much uniformly vote for their party candidate, we can expect that the vast majority of D's would vote in an equally shitty Dem candidate as Trump (and perhaps already have/do!). That D's superiority complex is a perfect mirror of R's superiority complex.
  • Which of course means that deep disdain for Trump supporters on moral grounds is untenable
  • That Trump did not really actively court racists in any kind of "open" or "obvious" way, and that the whole "dogwhistle" phenomenon is primarily a media hallucination; see Matrix v Ghostbusters thread
  • That "the Matrix" is the ideological prism/prison that ends up with us antagonizing one another, believing the whipped-up hysteria of a clickbait media is true of half the country, and pits us against each other in a false, distracting internal conflict. Which we perpetuate by othering anyone who grew up in a Republican household while pretending to "cultural relativism." The candidates wave their hands and make symbolic gestures, the news pre-interprets these symbolic gestures for their audiences to maximize outrage, and people get super upset/stop speaking to their relatives at Thanksgiving dinner.
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we agree to disagree on some of these finer point, silliness aside.
 
sus

sus

Moderator
Mr. Tea said:
I find this 2-cool-4-school, "anyone who cares about politics is a sucker" attitude extremely unimpressive, tbh. Especially when it comes from an able-bodied, financially comfortable, straight, white guy, i.e. a member of the very last demographic that's going to be affected either by any of Trump's policies or by people radicalized by his rhetoric.

If you want to talk about projection, we could start with your assertion that politics is just a "performance of moral indignation by people who don't actually give a shit". Some people who actually have something at stake might give a lot more of a shit than you do.
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I don't think anyone who cares about politics is a sucker. I think there's important things happening at organizational levels, with local and even state-level politics. I think people who work hard to get specific pieces of legislation through are doing super important work.

I do think that Europeans following American presidential gossip smacks of entertainment and tribalism, the equivalent of football & soccer teams, rather than actual ethical commitment.

Tell me—since I'm projecting, and you care so much about the plight of immigrants and minorities, about poverty and inequality and bigotry, what actual things have you done to help them out? As a member of the Western world, even a very modest income can save lives in the third world. Do you help at soup kitchens on the weekend? Food banks? Volunteer in the local prisons in the evenings? Do you donate 10% of your salary to live-saving charity? Because—spoiler—I do.
 
sus

sus

Moderator
Let's pay close attention to what you've chosen to care about, Tea—my race, my sexual orientation, and my income. The subtle connotation of Donald J. Trump's off-the-cuff utterances. Getting mad at people on the Internet for not conforming with the official opinions of the Guardian/BBC/educated ruling class.

It's a world of symbols. Shadows on the wall. The cave. The matrix.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
suspended said:
Do you help at soup kitchens on the weekend? Food banks? Volunteer in the local prisons in the evenings? Do you donate 10% of your salary to live-saving charity? Because—spoiler—I do.
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When you buy an item from screwfix you are offered the opportunity to round it up so like add an extra 10p to a £14:90 purchase with the extra money going to charity. Sometimes Mr Tea pays that 10p
 
sus

sus

Moderator
I've posted the fandom tweet, which is relevant I think—you realize that the political impulse (endless disputes over the "correct" opinions about things that don't matter, that you don't have control over, that are pure symbol) is endemic. Part of what it means to be a person. But another tweet I saw this week, that's relevant I think, went something like this:

"Back in my day, they called 'discourse' a 'wank'"

Everything that happens on this board has zero effect on people outside this board. If you care about the suffering masses, about injustice and the wronged, posting indignantly about Donald Trump's latest sound-clip will not help them. It is "for you only," and for other members of this board. It isn't about the "actual" or outside world at all. The outside world functions merely as a picture, to point at, as if you were visiting an art museum with a friend: "That Pollock character really is bollocks." It's a way of symbolically bonding with one another over shared opinions and values. Not without value—just don't cling too tightly, let others be profane; prioritize interestingness over elite-approved "correctness."

Clinamenic has the right perspective on this, I think—sees exposure to politics, geopolitics as about learning and personal growth and openness and understanding the world.
 
linebaugh

linebaugh

Well-known member
luka said:
When you buy an item from screwfix you are offered the opportunity to round it up so like add an extra 10p to a £14:90 purchase with the extra money going to charity. Sometimes Mr Tea pays that 10p
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I know your joking but I recently learned that often times when companies run programs like that theyve already made a lump sum donation, and are just looking to recuperate some of it from the consumer
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
suspended said:
I don't think anyone who cares about politics is a sucker. I think there's important things happening at organizational levels, with local and even state-level politics. I think people who work hard to get specific pieces of legislation through are doing super important work.

I do think that Europeans following American presidential gossip smacks of entertainment and tribalism, the equivalent of football & soccer teams, rather than actual ethical commitment.

Tell me—since I'm projecting, and you care so much about the plight of immigrants and minorities, about poverty and inequality and bigotry, what actual things have you done to help them out? As a member of the Western world, even a very modest income can save lives in the third world. Do you help at soup kitchens on the weekend? Food banks? Volunteer in the local prisons in the evenings? Do you donate 10% of your salary to live-saving charity? Because—spoiler—I do.
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Yeah, I give to charity (no, not 10%, but I do give). I give money and food to homeless people. I think these things are worth doing but they can only ever be minor ameliorations. I also vote for a party that, while very, very flawed in its own ways, is certainly preferable to the one currently in power by any humanitarian metric.

If you really do tons of philanthropic stuff then that's great and more power to you, but I have a hard time squaring that with the pro-Trump stuff. Trump withdrew from the Paris Accord, which is just about the most misanthropic thing he could possibly have done, when you consider what's at stake. It's not an abstract issue that only liberal college professors care about.
 
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
suspended said:
I don't think anyone who cares about politics is a sucker. I think there's important things happening at organizational levels, with local and even state-level politics. I think people who work hard to get specific pieces of legislation through are doing super important work.

I do think that Europeans following American presidential gossip smacks of entertainment and tribalism, the equivalent of football & soccer teams, rather than actual ethical commitment.

Tell me—since I'm projecting, and you care so much about the plight of immigrants and minorities, about poverty and inequality and bigotry, what actual things have you done to help them out? As a member of the Western world, even a very modest income can save lives in the third world. Do you help at soup kitchens on the weekend? Food banks? Volunteer in the local prisons in the evenings? Do you donate 10% of your salary to live-saving charity? Because—spoiler—I do.
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One can help the less fortunate IRL and talk shit about Trump on a message board. The two are not mutually exclusive.
 
sus

sus

Moderator
Mr. Tea said:
Yeah, I give to charity (no, not 10%, but I do give). I give money and food to homeless people. I think these things are worth doing but they can only ever be minor ameliorations. I also vote for a party that, while very, very flawed in its own ways, is certainly preferable to the one currently in power by any humanitarian metric.

If you really do tons of philanthropic stuff then that's great and more power to you, but I have a hard time squaring that with the pro-Trump stuff. Trump withdrew from the Paris Accord, which is just about the most misanthropic thing he could possibly have done, when you consider what's at stake. It's not an abstract issue that only liberal college professors care about.
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I've never ever been pro-Trump. I've called him (search results) shitty, shallow, selfish, self-obsessed, an idiot, impotent, incompetent, and immoral, and have never once voted for him.

My position on this board has always been pushing against what I see as a tactically disastrous, selectively uncharitable, and borderline hysterical overreaction to Trump by liberal quarters. It has never been that Trump is a good president, good man, or someone who I support.
 
sus

sus

Moderator
luka said:
Limburger has precisely analysed how all of Gus' opinions were formed in reaction to the infuriatingly supercilious arts students who wouldn't let him into their exclusive clique at NYU.
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We've been over this, I would never pay $72k a year for college. I got full financial support from a uni that provides it—uniformly—for the middle class, paid for by wealthy foreigners, as it should be.
 
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