Is Russia the future of Britain?

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
theres organised crime erywhere and at the top levels of power there is no real division between legal and illegal, just a fluid absence of all borders and limits. thats the whole point of power.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
@DannyL I fully ‘get‘ where you’re coming from, but the distinction made was that our foundations are rotten, with key points from a historical (rather than a contemporary) perspective. The emphasis was laid out in my original post.

This isn’t some Oedipal complex or lacking a basic understanding of the world (please), rather what our own nation is built on historically. We only got “rights” by suppressing the rights of others (domestic and foreign) and the end of British colonialism is akin to yesterday in the big scheme of things, time-wise. We can just gloss over that, but I’d rather not.

Look at what slave emancipation insurance money contributed toward British infrastructure. Etc. Aboriginal and indigenous slaughter on numerous continents. Wars, endless wars, over anything worth grandstanding over. The “minor” matter of Ireland, sugar plantations in the Caribbean, funding the confederacy during the US Civil War, South Africa‘s legacy, the partition of India. Aka Industrialised mayhem. When was being gay decriminalised here? Not that long ago. Now we can add GCHQ acting as America’s bitch.

You’re spot on about Russia’s own bs. You could add Stalin, famine, genocide basically, but Britain’s own history is littered with atrocities, war crimes, genocide. Are our rights worth defending? Of course they fucking are, but in terms of historical malevolence Britain has taken the piss at astronomical levels.

This isn’t a leftist Oedipal position of ignorance. It’s called history.
Man, your initial post was 2 very short lines so you didn't really lay out any emphasis, as far as I can see. Your post came over like the bog standard carping that you see from the Left whenever any critique of the "wrong" nation stations occurs (i.e. those opposed to the West) - whataboutery. Your post above is much more qualified so thank you.

I can't help but read this general tendency as oedipal. It's not an accusation I'm levelling at you personally but it's something that's very clear - that psychological weirdness that can never find anything good to say about this country but always has to say something negative. The Left has a massive problem with patriotism and therefore cedes this ground to the Right. See the recent paroxysms of rage over Starmer and Lisa Nandy making very limited appeals to patriotism in an attempt to win back voters.

I agree with your about our "historical malevolence" and there's a lot of current injustices still in play that rest on this, of course. I just found it, odd, rather jarring, that you would go there as a first point of reference when we were talking about current corruption and making a comparison re. our democratic norms vs. their absence. The reason I didn't mention Stalin, the famines etc is because I'm interested in what Russia (and China) are doing now, and what the effect will likely be on democracies in the 21st Century.

Based on current trends I'd say we're sliding towards increased global authoritarianism which will probably end up legitimising and covering up genocide, if it's not already. Idk if you were here when I was posting a lot about Syria but there was the chance in 2013 of reinforcing a norm against the use of nerve agents in warfare (and of supporting a democratic revolution -this less likely I'll admit) which was missed by the Obama administration.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
it should be easy. ive had to block third, padraig and patty at various points. ive unblocked them now though.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
if droid was here he'd give you a bollocking but i dont see the point. its just a fundamental political division. people like us who think England (and the west as a US led political unit and structure of power) is the best country on earth and are passionate englishmen and Irish people like droid or Irish sympathsisers like Washyourhands who have a mystifyingly jaundiced view of England (and the west as a US led political unit and structure of power).

theres never any real point to these argumentsw they only ever retread old ground. droid makes a big list of western crimes then oliver says yeah but we invented the microwave.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
What I mean by this is Britain turning into a mobster state, an oligarchy. We're seeing millions, if not billions, in public money disappearing all the time. There's zero accountability. The same people keep moving in and out of government. Everybody knows it's fucked, that the people in power are corrupt, and yet nothing changes.

I know everyone's written off Fukuyama now that history hasn't ended, but I was looking at a relatively recent paper of his on corruption and I think I agree with his contention that it may be THE issue of the 21st century,

You could counter that with climate change or a few other things, but I'd argue it's precisely because of corruption that climate change has become such a pressing issue. If people weren't bowing to lobbying from fossil fuel companies, taking bribes etc then maybe we'd have gotten on top of it decades ago.
It was always stupid to write of Fukuyama. There was a lot of prescient and important stuff in the full length version of The End of History. Because of the stupid title, everybody ignored it after it had its moment. But it's still there and it's still good.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
its a brilliant title it made him famous. one of the best titles ever in my opinion.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Yeah it is, I didn't mean "stupid" at all really. You could write an essay about the impact of the title alone. It simultaneously made and destroyed his reputation. The original essay had a question mark at the end of it and the book version added "...and the Last Man". He nicked it off Kojeve, as he explains in the text.

In a way, you can separate the title from the actual book. They almost exist in different spheres. Everybody remembers the title, nobody reads the book.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
I can't help but read this general tendency as oedipal. It's not an accusation I'm levelling at you personally but it's something that's very clear - that psychological weirdness that can never find anything good to say about this country but always has to say something negative.
Can't remember who said it, but there's a quote along the lines of "I hate my own country because I know it best".
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
If you’re from the northern and western regions, mistrust of the British establishment is bred into you.

’Watch those heathens”. “They’ll ban your languages”. “Don’t believe a word they say”. “Yeah Sturgeon does look like a Krankie, so fucking what cunt”. “MacAulish.......charrrge”.

Got a bit too into it there, apologies.
 
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