The Uyghurs

[version]

The other, a forum very into psyop twitter, says that whats actually going on is the xinjiang region has been radicalized by insurgents from Afghanistan as well as the CIA (and potentially Russia?) and what China is doing to reeducate the people is the most humane way to deal with a tough situation.

Is this D/C?

 

[linebaugh]

yes

 

[version]

I butted heads with a few people on there over this. Sometimes they seem to fall into this binary logic of anything in opposition to America being good and anything bad you hear being US propaganda.

It's like refusing to believe the Allies could have done anything questionable during WW2 simply because their opponents were the Axis.

 

[luka]

Nailed it.

Never had the big man tell me this before ☺️

 

[version]

You'd think with satellites and covert operatives, parts of the US Gov know

But then, why not publicize? Turning the world against China is a huge win

Sayragul Sauytbay's story was pretty heavily publicised.

 

[luka]

most states have a problem with this or that tribe be it catholics in northern ireland, african americans and native americans, gypsys, palestinians, tamils, kurds, rohingya, tibetans, uygrs, etc etc etc and none of them get treated especially well

 

[Clinamenic]

Bias against out groups seems to be the status quo, presumably even across most of the animal kingdom but that is speculation on my part. But when a given group has written the law of the land, their particular bias is weighted all the more so, their particular discriminative -ism's become systemic discriminative -ism's, etc.

 

[version]

Does America still have the moral authority to confront China over something like this? They can just point to Guantánamo Bay or the rumours of mass hysterectomies in detention centers and level charges of hypocrisy.

 

[Clinamenic]

I doubt any state actor, at least any of the most developed ones, have the moral authority here. That said, the US, again seemingly like most state actors, certainly has the selective memory to confront China over something like this.

 

[Clinamenic]

It becomes a leverage point. Moral situations seem to collapse into leverage points at certain heights of bureaucracy, wherefrom they may only be apprehended as data, abstractions, etc.

 

[version]

I doubt any state actor, at least any of the most developed ones, have the moral authority here. That said, the US, again seemingly like most state actors, certainly has the selective memory to confront China over something like this.

They'll probably want the backing of the rest of the world if they do though. It's not just about the selective memory of the US.

 

[Clinamenic]

And it could be effectively presented as a gesture of preserving liberal/tolerant values, which it could very well be, at least in part.

 

[Clinamenic]

Although really I'm not sure what such an operation would consist of. I would guess official sanctions, plus heightened coverage of the phenomena in order to impress upon US citizens that China does not align with liberal/tolerant values, and thus constitutes a "great power competition", etc.

 

[luka]

Does America still have the moral authority to confront China over something like this? They can just point to Guantánamo Bay or the rumours of mass hysterectomies in detention centers and level charges of hypocrisy.

Depends partly on exactly what is happening. What persecution level is it? Jews in Nazi Germany? Palestinians today? Americans on dissensus?

 

[thirdform]

@john eden @DannyL @thirdform @vimothy @craner @148 I.Q. Magical Thinker

For the record the CCP doesn't deny the internment (sorry, re-education) camps.

I believe Carl Zha who is close to the CCP also admitted that some pretty horrific 'human rights' abuses were going on, if you hold much stock in that concept. Chinas reasoning is of course pure capitalist reasoning. It is not at all different to the UK prevent strategy - except we put a more humane face upon it - although mostly it is not seen as a violation of 'human rights' for authority figures to conduct surveillance upon muslim children for symptoms of radicalisation - wonder why?

The only way one could potentially have firm ground to support Chinas actions on this is to believe that there was or still is a proletarian dictatorship over there fighting reactionism, which would have to mean you would have to pretend that Deng, Xi jimping, hell if we wanted to take it way back, Liu Shaoqi, the entire hot 1960s in China was and is historically irrelevant. But of course that would have to mean you would have to argue that Deng, for instance, was somehow not a capitalist roader after Mao's death.

 

[thirdform]

I imagine an accusation like that would be cause for massive violent conflict and even if we can gather the intel its the type of claim thats really only going to be convincing through visceral evidence gathered by a war like invasion. like endometriosis you can have surgery to address it if you suspect its there but you can only get a confirmed diagnoses after theyve cut you up.

Well, it's also that the average American couldn't give two shits about Uyghur muslims, and until they become a threat to national security. American politics is culturally though not ideologically fascist in that no matter if democrats or republicans win, it's the incessant regurgitation as the president as a humane personality - a cult of Stalin with a democratic face, if you will.

 

[thirdform]

For the record the CCP doesn't deny the internment (sorry, re-education) camps.

I believe Carl Zha who is close to the CCP also admitted that some pretty horrific 'human rights' abuses were going on, if you hold much stock in that concept. Chinas reasoning is of course pure capitalist reasoning. It is not at all different to the UK prevent strategy - except we put a more humane face upon it - although mostly it is not seen as a violation of 'human rights' for authority figures to conduct surveillance upon muslim children for symptoms of radicalisation - wonder why?

The only way one could potentially have firm ground to support Chinas actions on this is to believe that there was or still is a proletarian dictatorship over there fighting reactionism, which would have to mean you would have to pretend that Deng, Xi jimping, hell if we wanted to take it way back, Liu Shaoqi, the entire hot 1960s in China was and is historically irrelevant. But of course that would have to mean you would have to argue that Deng, for instance, was somehow not a capitalist roader after Mao's death.

Bump for re-edit.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Although really I'm not sure what such an operation would consist of. I would guess official sanctions, plus heightened coverage of the phenomena in order to impress upon US citizens that China does not align with liberal/tolerant values, and thus constitutes a "great power competition", etc.

We'd just send in @148 I.Q. Magical Thinker to fight (and win) his land war in Asia, of course!

 

[version]

This felt like a particularly ruthless attempt to turn the rhetoric of the West back on it,

 

[Mr. Tea]

This felt like a particularly ruthless attempt to turn the rhetoric of the West back on it,

Well that's one way to describe forced abortions and sterilizations.

But yes, for someone one unaware of that, it does sound superficially 'feminist'.