version

Well-known member
It is like a mass compulsion, I agree. I just happen to see plentiful reason to move in this direction, but yes it is a direction we seem to be moving in somewhat blindly, as if driven by some natural force.
It's not even mass though, is it? Most of us have nothing to do with self-driving vehicles, but they're happening anyway. A relatively small group of people and companies just keep building and pursuing things.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Self-driving vehicles will only take off if they meet enough of a need, i.e. if they save labor or expenses somehow, or otherwise allow us to be more efficient/productive with our time, to up the ante in terms of "grind culture" stati quo.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Like wanting a flip smartphone in order to belong to the chic cutting edge of the socios. Really there isn't any discernible utility to these new phones, aside from potentially fitting into you pocket a bit more nicely.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
I ultimately have faith in humanity, but I generally think we shouldn't trust human nature to make microeconomic decisions that have macroeconomic consequences. That is, I believe in regulated capitalism.

But I also believe the private sector should have comparable economic leverage to the public sector, so as to mitigate totalizing public policy.
 

luka

Well-known member
It's not even mass though, is it? Most of us have nothing to do with self-driving vehicles, but they're happening anyway. A relatively small group of people and companies just keep building and pursuing things.
and quite stupid things for the most part
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Yeah building things to raise the bottom line to build more things to raise the bottom line, a visionless circular logic endemic to single-bottom-line capitalism.
 

version

Well-known member
I don't know how you resolve the need for perpetual growth at the heart of capitalism whilst preserving capitalism. We're ending up with more and more products of worse and worse quality and utility.
 

luka

Well-known member
I don't know how you resolve the need for perpetual growth at the heart of capitalism whilst preserving capitalism. We're ending up with more and more products of worse and worse quality and utility.
this is one of the manuveres Stan has made for reasons of convinience and neatness and consistency. and moves made for these reasons tend to lead to a simplifcation of thought. your smoothing out something in your model, that in 'reality' is far from smooth
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
I think the only way to really realize capitalism in a cosmic, compassionate way is to financially incentivize and/or politically mandate the social and environmental bottom lines. But until these can be bootstrapped, i.e. construed as financially profitable, I don't see how we can get there.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
The metaverse stands to turbocharge much of this. One good thing is that crypto does legitimately open up capital markets to the middle class and even lower-middle class. Once crypto ATMs get adopted, you will no longer need a bank account to be involved in capital markets.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
We're ending up with more and more products of worse and worse quality and utility.
Due, in part, to mindless and unscrupulous consumers, who in turn have been informed by spontaneous and coordinated conditioning alike. Anyway, an efficient market with minimal tilting (i.e. people not being conditioned to desire stupid things with no utility or low quality) would entail that stupid products don't become successful.

But of course, as Luka says, things are messy, i.e. not that efficient.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Plus, stupidity is part of our nature, and perhaps we shouldn't expect to purge ourselves, or the system at large, of it.
 

version

Well-known member
I think the only way to really realize capitalism in a cosmic, compassionate way is to financially incentivize and/or politically mandate the social and environmental bottom lines. But until these can be bootstrapped, i.e. construed as financially profitable, I don't see how we can get there.
Surely that will always run counter to maximising profit though? It's socially and environmentally healthier for people to buy one or two jackets, but profit demands you sell as many jackets as possible and increase the number sold indefinitely.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
I don't necessarily believe capitalism will become as compassionate as I would prefer it to be, but I nonetheless sense utility in the insistence upon such compassion.
 

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
Surely that will always run counter to maximising profit though? It's socially and environmentally healthier for people to buy one or two jackets, but profit demands you sell as many jackets as possible and increase the number sold indefinitely.
Yeah so the gordian knot here is how to financially incentivize certain ethical business practices. Not impossible, not unprecedented, but certainly difficult.

I don't believe single-bottom-line capitalism is against ethics, I just think it is largely indifferent to ethics, and won't incur any liabilities that are not deemed worthwhile and/or necessary.
 
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