The Front

[luka]

what do you mean? i thought was quite straight. ask a question and i will answer it.

 

[sus]

what do you mean? i thought was quite straight. ask a question and i will answer it.

What led you to this change in attitude / you don't think you have a social front still ? That there is no performance no gap between front and backstage?

 

[sus]

Are you completely unedited or do you feel like the self-editing is minor

Have you just given up on maintaining your front

Do you disagree with Goffman and the idea that we maintain an idealized front that is different than our self unobserved alone for great lengths no surveillance

 

[luka]

thats quite a lot of questions but ok one sec

 

[luka]

What led you to this change in attitude / you don't think you have a social front still ? That there is no performance no gap between front and backstage?

what led to the change in attitude was a lot of things led up to it, as always when you have a big change, but basically some mushrooms with two other lads and at some point i just decided, delusional probably but never mind, that they liked me, that people generally liked me, that i was likeable and didn't have to worry about the impression i made or conceal anything about my nature. and that stuck with me by and large, for better or for worse

 

[luka]

the interesting thing is that once you work this out and stop pretending you become much freer to throw yourself into different roles, you actually become way more protean as a result

what i was trying to point to here is that also led to a kind of dissolving of the problem itself. everything is performance but its performance as performance, not performance intended to decieve or feign authenticity. it all becomes a big fun game

 

[luka]

i read the goffman too, a long time ago, and i liked it and of course there's a lot of truth in it.

and of courwse its very easy to pick apart the notion of an authentic or fixed stable self inner unchanging core.

but at the same time if you say to someone, god that event was awful i felt so stifled, i couldnt be myself, they know exactly what you mean

 

[sus]

Hmm yes a lot to chew on

 

[sus]

I'm not happy with this thread but I feel like I've been thrown into uncertain ground here.

 

[sus]

I'm gonna post some Goffman and quell the existential angst

Goffman's performance is "all the activity of an individual which occurs during a period marked by [an individual's] continuous presence before a particular set of observers and which has some influence on the observers." A "front," meanwhile, is "the expressive equipment of a standard kind intentionally or unwittingly employed by the individual during his performance." Sometimes, performers rely on a "set" which they either opportunistically seize, travel to for performances, or carry with them as in the case of "the funeral cortege, the civic parade, and the dream-like processions that kings and queens are made of."

 

[sus]

I think @luka it seems like what you are saying is that you used to "idealize" your front more—were more censorious in your performance, restricting its dramatic range and potential—and now you put on what feels like a "natural" performance, which as you say, is not devious but is theatrical, expressive, communicative, a show for others, if others weren't there there would be no point in the show

 

[sus]

Goffman I think sees all performance as inherently deceptive insofar as it curates, as it picks and chooses, as it says to parts of the self "you will stay hidden" and tells other parts "I will make sure you see daylight"

When an individual plays a part he implicitly requests his observers to take seriously the impression that is fostered before them. They are asked to believe that the character they see actually possesses the attributes he appears to possess, that the task he performs will have the consequences that are implicitly claimed for it, and that, in general, matters are what they appear to be.

And Goffman takes the Bob Trivers/Robin Hanson stance on self-deception as a way of deceiving others:

At one extreme, we find that the performer can be fully taken in by his own act; he can be sincerely convinced that the impression of reality which he stages is the real reality... At the other extreme, we find that the performer may not be taken in at all... This possibility is understandable, since no one is in quite as good an observational position to see through the act as the person who puts it on.

When the individual has no belief in his own act and no ultimate concern with the beliefs of his audience, we may call him cynical, reserving the term sincere for individuals who believe in the impression fostered by their own performance.

 

[sus]

And not all performance is selfish or "Machiavellian"

It is not assumed... that all cynical performers are interested in deluding their audiences for purposes of what is called "self-interest" or private gain. A cynical individual may delude his audience for what he considers to be illustrations of their own good, or for the good of the community, etc. For illustrations of this we need not appeal to sadly enlightened showmen such as Marcus Aurelius or Hsun Tzu. We know that in service occupations practitioners who may otherwise be sincere are sometimes forced to delude their customers because their customers show such a heartfelt demand for it. Doctors who are led into giving placebos, filling-station attendants who resignedly check and recheck tire pressures for anxious women motorists, shoe clerks who sell a shoe that fits but tell the customer it is the size she wants to hear—these are cynical performers whose audiences will not allow them to be sincere.

And the performance roles we play eventually come to feel natural, and thus can be sincerely performed. We can see this naturalizing when we abruptly switch roles: military recruits may first follow army etiquette to avoid punishment, and soon internalize them as important. Or:

For the last four or five years the island's tourist hotel has been owned by a married couple of crofter origins. From the beginning, the owners were forced to set aside their own conceptions as to how life ought to be led, displaying in the hotel a full round of middle-class services and amenities. Lately, however, it appears that the managers have become less cynical about the performance that they stage; they themselves are becoming middle class and more and more enamoured of the selves their clients impute to them.

 

[sus]

a performance is, in a sense, "socialised," moulded and modified to fit into the understanding and expectations of the society in which it is presented.

The impression we give off is idealized, but idealized how?

when the individual presents himself before others, his performance will tend to incorporate and exemplify the officially accredited values of the society, more so, in fact, than does his behaviour as a whole.

 

[WashYourHands]

Social domains, social norms, anxiety thresholds

Working with addicts you meet the front every day. The lies through to someone who could fill in 5 or 6 police on a crack comedown but liquify at the thought of public speaking. A person who runs a regional distribution network, intimidate physically and psychologically to the extent of murder, might not be into doing a best man’s speech without necking a bucket of benzos. Consistent conversations concerning relapses

The front can transcend class, or use it as such. British are in a league of their own here but you can only front so much. Alternatively, look (maybe not) at an atypical research seminar. How people carry themselves, where their tension lies, jaw/shoulders/voice, who seems at ease, who’s having a breakdown. The eye and the objects of its gaze are archetypal symbols because their operation penetrates and jeopardises fronts


@suspended American fronts - found the sunglasses thing borderline rude initially. All these Tom Hanks could look into my eyes, but exchange this good will with a visitor to their mighty nation? Not a chance, retina shield addicts. Once you realise essentially it’s laziness, people can’t be arsed managing eye contact, it stopped registering. At least in London they have the courtesy to just look right through you. Ireland differs -ease of conviviality, less onerous pretensions. Barry Lyndon is a fun twist, as is the Pygmalion

 

[linebaugh]

one of the big things in my life was realising that there is no mask and youre fooling nobody

Not political but I think the Internet Face applies here.

Read an article about the phenomenon and in it Charlie D'Amelio, worlds most followed tik tok user and #1 on Gus's 25 Hottest Under 18, said that facial expression is the most important feature of viral video making.

The close framing of the selfie cam makes each individual feature its own actor. Every muscular twitch is coordinated and optimized.

Other iteration of Internet Face is the infamous soy face. Schizo in that's an attempt to portray both extreme excitement and complete non aggression

 

[woops]

what led to the change in attitude was a lot of things led up to it, as always when you have a big change, but basically some mushrooms with two other lads and at some point i just decided, delusional probably but never mind, that they liked me, that people generally liked me, that i was likeable and didn't have to worry about the impression i made or conceal anything about my nature. and that stuck with me by and large, for better or for worse

for once i know what @luka is on about as i can definitely remember having a similar breakthrough. in that a long time ago i used to be basically paralyzed by an inability to say what i was thinking. in case everyone thought i was a dick. and eventually i decided to just say it, and now everyone thinks i am a dick. or at least that's how i remember it. of course it makes it sound very simple and is probably an illusion and i continue to cycle through a series of selves etc.

 

[luka]

my gut feeling is that the premise is too reductive and misanthropic. our behaviour is all acting, looks all acting, seen from a certain vantage. but it looks like something else when you change the angle youre looking at it from.

 

[sus]

This is a very good example of the kind of intricate, elaborate deceptive fronts people can keep up


Well-worth the reading time, lots of good drama, grab yr popcorn etc

And illustrates the way that, when you leave the village/hunter-gatherer structure and enter the city, and exist in many different subcultures and social groups (work, online, hobby, uni, hometown, family etc) there are almost these natural incentives for "multiple faces for different audiences." It only fails when, y'know, you invite all your friends to the same party and they swap notes. Beiser was telling me he thinks this stuff is endemic, totally common in a more banal way

 

[version]

The real kicker will be if the person telling that story's made it up for Reddit and bamboozled everyone.