Reggae Roots in Techno?

T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
william_kent said:
unfortunately I think sasha was from Manchester, but like a virus we rejected him, so all good
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I think he was Welsh.

will not sashashame @craner if this is wrong.

checking wiki now

Birth name
Alexander Paul Coe[a]
Also known as
DJ Sasha · The Man Like
Born
4 September 1969 (age 53)
Bangor, Wales, United Kingdom
Origin
Sandycroft, Flintshire, North Wales, United Kingdom
 
craner

craner

Beast of Burden
No it’s not. He’s from North Wales. I’m from South Wales. We can’t be held responsible for what goes on up there. Blame Liverpool.
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
craner said:
No it’s not. He’s from North Wales. I’m from South Wales. We can’t be held responsible for what goes on up there. Blame Liverpool.
Click to expand...

you were the one gushing about handbag and euro italo cheese! You must take responsibility for unleashing a frankensteins monster.

WYH is also welsh but the man has impeccable taste. @WashYourHands

You're right about liverpool though, but doesn't that mean that you have to take the blame for not advocating Welsh independence? Sasha also missed a gig to watch the liverpool southampton match a few weeks ago apparently. wyh also supports welsh independence to ensure this never happens. VAMOS CYMRU!
 
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william_kent

william_kent

Well-known member
apologies in advance for a drunk and convoluted post:

in 1987, for two weeks, there was number one hit in the UK ( and the Netherlands, Italy, Canada, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, and US Billboard's "Hot Club Play")

in other words, it was a big tune, worldwide


M|A|R|R|S – Pump Up The Volume ( 1987 )

a failed collaboration between Colourbox and A.R. Kane which ignited a row over the use of samples, instigated by Pete Waterman

wikipedia notes:

SAW member Pete Waterman wrote an open letter to the music press calling such things "wholesale theft". Some publications were quick to point out that Waterman was currently using the bassline from the Colonel Abrams song "Trapped" in his production of Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up", which was competing in close proximity to "Pump Up the Volume" in the pop charts. Observers suggested that SAW's motives had just as much to do with extending the run of "Never Gonna Give You Up" at the top of the chart.
Click to expand...

Pete Waterman is the premier music biz personality who rules the model railway scene ( I have witnessed this myself on a recent visit to Chester Cathedral where there was a model railway exhibit which expressed many thanks to him for his support ), who is maybe only rivalled by Rod Stewart with his impressive model railway scenic representation of a "US City"

1670112668938.png

Rod Stewart's Model Railway


1670114465018.png

or, if Trailer Park Boys can believed then Sebastian Bach of Skid Row may also be a contender for Model Railway Champion of the music scene


Sebastian Bach - Model railway Champion ( Trailer Park Boys )

but putting model railways aside, Pete Waterman is also the man responsible for Lee Perry's worst single - although what do i know? It was a hit and made money , but I've never been able to listen to this to the end:


Susan Cadogan - Hurts So Good ( 1975 )

You worked with Lee Perry in Jamaica, how was that?

I bought $80 of ganja on the beach and got myself in to make a reggae record. Literally, you could make a record for $80 but they didn't want the money they wanted a bag of ganja. So you went and bought the ganja, turned up at the studio, the boys all spliffed up and they went and played the song.
Click to expand...

apparently Lee Perry didn't want to do the tune, but he wanted the weed...

anyway, back to M|A|R|R|S... their single softened up the UK public for 'ardcore, along with Bomb The Bass's

1670114763403.png

acid house smiley faced 1987 UK number 2 hit single


Bomb The Bass - Beat Dis ( 1987 )

and S'Express's 1988 hit Theme from S'Express


S'Express - The Trip ( Microdot House Mix ) ( 1988 ) ( my favourite mix of Theme From S'Express, it's on the B-side of the 12" )

( maybe marks a moment where the former Blitz kids and WAG club crew abandoned new romantic and embraced acid house )

anyway, what I'm getting at is that M|A|R|R|S, Bomb The Bass, and S'Express laid the ground for the MAINSTREAM to be receptive to acid, house, and techno - this is the UK in 1987, one year before the "second summer of love", a year when the underground warehouse parties were still playing rare groove

as mentioned above M|A|R|R|S was really Colourbox, who released an amazing 12 " ( Shotgun ) in 1983


Colourbox - Shotgun ( 1983 )

and then a very disappointing and mediocre LP in 1985, but the following year they redeemed themselves with this single:


Colourbox Featuring Lorita Grahame – Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

which just happens to be a cover of the seminal reggae classic:


Jacob Miller - Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

the version of which is the title track of the dub album which features in many top ten lists;

1670116949309.png


Augustus Pablo - King Tubby's Meets Rockers Uptown ( 1976 )

and which, in an attempt to get back on track, was versioned by Joe Gibbs :


Joe Gibbs - Chapter Three ( 1977 )

which was a tune that was played at Dave Mancuso's legendary NYC Loft parties, attended by Larry Levan and Frankie Knuckles, which brings us back to the JA -> NYC -> Chicago - > Detroit nexus absorbed by the UK and ultimately resulting in RAVE

so, in conclusion, reggae roots of techno, house, and UK 'ardcore was Jacob Miller voiced by Augustus Pablo in 1975...

edit - discogs says 1975, but a check of the label says 1974:

1670120796912.png
 
Last edited:
Leo

Leo

Well-known member
william_kent said:
apologies in advance for a drunk and convoluted post:

in 1987, for two weeks, there was number one hit in the UK ( and the Netherlands, Italy, Canada, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, and US Billboard's "Hot Club Play")

in other words, it was a big tune, worldwide


M|A|R|R|S – Pump Up The Volume ( 1987 )

a failed collaboration between Colourbox and A.R. Kane which ignited a row over the use of samples, instigated by Pete Waterman

wikipedia notes:



Pete Waterman is the premier music biz personality who rules the model railway scene ( I have witnessed this myself on a recent visit to Chester Cathedral where there was a model railway exhibit which expressed many thanks to him for his support ), who is maybe only rivalled by Rod Stewart with his impressive model railway scenic representation of a "US City"

View attachment 13688

Rod Stewart's Model Railway


View attachment 13690

or, if Trailer Park Boys can believed then Sebastian Bach of Skid Row may also be a contender for Model Railway Champion of the music scene


Sebastian Bach - Model railway Champion ( Trailer Park Boys )

but putting model railways aside, Pete Waterman is also the man responsible for Lee Perry's worst single - although what do i know? It was a hit and made money , but I've never been able to listen to this to the end:


Susan Cadogan - Hurts So Good ( 1975 )



apparently Lee Perry didn't want to do the tune, but he wanted the weed...

anyway, back to M|A|R|R|S... their single softened up the UK public for 'ardcore, along with Bomb The Bass's

View attachment 13691

acid house smiley faced 1987 UK number 2 hit single


Bomb The Bass - Beat Dis ( 1987 )

and S'Express's 1988 hit Theme from S'Express


S'Express - The Trip ( Microdot House Mix ) ( 1988 ) ( my favourite mix of Theme From S'Express, it's on the B-side of the 12" )

( maybe marks a moment where the former Blitz kids and WAG club crew abandoned new romantic and embraced acid house )

anyway, what I'm getting at is that M|A|R|R|S, Bomb The Bass, and S'Express laid the ground for the MAINSTREAM to be receptive to acid, house, and techno - this is the UK in 1987, one year before the "second summer of love", a year when the underground warehouse parties were still playing rare groove

as mentioned above M|A|R|R|S was really Colourbox, who released an amazing 12 " ( Shotgun ) in 1983


Colourbox - Shotgun ( 1983 )

and then a very disappointing and mediocre LP in 1985, but the following year they redeemed themselves with this single:


Colourbox Featuring Lorita Grahame – Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

which just happens to be a cover of the seminal reggae classic:


Jacob Miller - Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

the version of which is the title track of the dub album which features in many top ten lists;

View attachment 13694


Augustus Pablo - King Tubby's Meets Rockers Uptown ( 1976 )

and which, in an attempt to get back on track, was versioned by Joe Gibbs :


Joe Gibbs - Chapter Three ( 1977 )

which was a tune that was played at Dave Mancuso's legendary NYC Loft parties, attended by Larry Levan and Frankie Knuckles, which brings us back to the JA -> NYC -> Chicago - > Detroit nexus absorbed by the UK and ultimately resulting in RAVE

so, in conclusion, reggae roots of techno, house, and UK 'ardcore was Jacob Miller voiced by Augustus Pablo in 1975...

edit - discogs says 1975, but a check of the label says 1974:

View attachment 13695
Click to expand...

nice work here, drunk or not.

another tidbit on the SAW-M|A|R|R|S battle: Waterman took an additional swipe at them by using an unauthorized sample of "Pump" on SAW's mix of Sybil's "My Love is Guaranteed"

only point I'd debate is referring to M|A|R|R|S as a failed collaboration: they only had one single, and it was a worldwide smash that got played for years (maybe still), a million times bigger than anything released by colourbox or AR Kane.
 
william_kent

william_kent

Well-known member
Leo said:
nice work here, drunk or not.

another tidbit on the SAW-M|A|R|R|S battle: Waterman took an additional swipe at them by using an unauthorized sample of "Pump" on SAW's mix of Sybil's "My Love is Guaranteed"

only point I'd debate is referring to M|A|R|R|S as a failed collaboration: they only had one single, and it was a worldwide smash that got played for years (maybe still), a million times bigger than anything released by colourbox or AR Kane.
Click to expand...

the "failed" reference was because they didn't really get along in the studio according to wikipedia:

The collaboration between the two groups did not go entirely to plan. Once in the studio, the groups' different working methods and personalities failed to gel. Producer John Fryer found himself in the middle and unable to resolve the conflict. The result was that instead of working together, the groups ended up recording a track each, then exchanging them to the other for additional input.
Click to expand...
 
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P

phil.

Well-known member
william_kent said:
apologies in advance for a drunk and convoluted post:

in 1987, for two weeks, there was number one hit in the UK ( and the Netherlands, Italy, Canada, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, and US Billboard's "Hot Club Play")

in other words, it was a big tune, worldwide


M|A|R|R|S – Pump Up The Volume ( 1987 )

a failed collaboration between Colourbox and A.R. Kane which ignited a row over the use of samples, instigated by Pete Waterman

wikipedia notes:



Pete Waterman is the premier music biz personality who rules the model railway scene ( I have witnessed this myself on a recent visit to Chester Cathedral where there was a model railway exhibit which expressed many thanks to him for his support ), who is maybe only rivalled by Rod Stewart with his impressive model railway scenic representation of a "US City"

View attachment 13688

Rod Stewart's Model Railway


View attachment 13690

or, if Trailer Park Boys can believed then Sebastian Bach of Skid Row may also be a contender for Model Railway Champion of the music scene


Sebastian Bach - Model railway Champion ( Trailer Park Boys )

but putting model railways aside, Pete Waterman is also the man responsible for Lee Perry's worst single - although what do i know? It was a hit and made money , but I've never been able to listen to this to the end:


Susan Cadogan - Hurts So Good ( 1975 )



apparently Lee Perry didn't want to do the tune, but he wanted the weed...

anyway, back to M|A|R|R|S... their single softened up the UK public for 'ardcore, along with Bomb The Bass's

View attachment 13691

acid house smiley faced 1987 UK number 2 hit single


Bomb The Bass - Beat Dis ( 1987 )

and S'Express's 1988 hit Theme from S'Express


S'Express - The Trip ( Microdot House Mix ) ( 1988 ) ( my favourite mix of Theme From S'Express, it's on the B-side of the 12" )

( maybe marks a moment where the former Blitz kids and WAG club crew abandoned new romantic and embraced acid house )

anyway, what I'm getting at is that M|A|R|R|S, Bomb The Bass, and S'Express laid the ground for the MAINSTREAM to be receptive to acid, house, and techno - this is the UK in 1987, one year before the "second summer of love", a year when the underground warehouse parties were still playing rare groove

as mentioned above M|A|R|R|S was really Colourbox, who released an amazing 12 " ( Shotgun ) in 1983


Colourbox - Shotgun ( 1983 )

and then a very disappointing and mediocre LP in 1985, but the following year they redeemed themselves with this single:


Colourbox Featuring Lorita Grahame – Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

which just happens to be a cover of the seminal reggae classic:


Jacob Miller - Baby I Love You So ( 1986 )

the version of which is the title track of the dub album which features in many top ten lists;

View attachment 13694


Augustus Pablo - King Tubby's Meets Rockers Uptown ( 1976 )

and which, in an attempt to get back on track, was versioned by Joe Gibbs :


Joe Gibbs - Chapter Three ( 1977 )

which was a tune that was played at Dave Mancuso's legendary NYC Loft parties, attended by Larry Levan and Frankie Knuckles, which brings us back to the JA -> NYC -> Chicago - > Detroit nexus absorbed by the UK and ultimately resulting in RAVE

so, in conclusion, reggae roots of techno, house, and UK 'ardcore was Jacob Miller voiced by Augustus Pablo in 1975...

edit - discogs says 1975, but a check of the label says 1974:

View attachment 13695
Click to expand...

Good shit Will! Very impressive, informative, fun, and creative. I'm gonna be chewing this over the rest of the morning.

Just wanted to pop in and clarify the "intent" or "purpose" of the thread (to the extent that there is one) because I think that I might not have conveyed where I'm coming from. I don't see this as "making up stories" exactly. But at the same time the "goal" here isn't to refine or expand that history into a more complete account. More like to work from the premise that any and all genre history of this sort is biased, incomplete, and picks and chooses its beats, and having accepted that, to see how well we can make our own story picking and choosing what we want to include instead, and working to make that chosen story as compelling and airtight as an equally biased and incomplete but "accepted" one. There's an element of arguing in bad faith here, or at least making a case that's compelling musically even if the history/lineage isn't as sound.

As far as Simon's point that it matters whether or not the music is heard, I don't exactly agree. In the case of Charanjit Singh's Synthesized: Ten Ragas to a Disco Beat, sure, I don't imagine anyone making acid house heard that in '82 and decided to emulate it. But what its existence betrays is that the melodies of those ragas, when the tempo is adjusted and they're plated on a synth, sound an awful lot like acid house. Which to my ear is a case that consciously or unconsciously acid house producers in the UK were influenced by Indian music they heard in their daily lives (someone who knows a bit more about demographics and immigrant populations could probably corroborate or refute this idea by checking to see where early acid house producers originate from, and what population demographics are in the area). The record itself is important as it's a working example of how this sounds and how close the two are, not a literal singular genesis for the sound, just a bridge or hypothetical.

On the 'parallel development' that's a fair point . What interests me is more primacy, what came first, and what we chose to cite and celebrate rather than what was actually heard. Like Simon mentioned there's a self-fulfilling aspect to this and that's something that can be leveraged. Nobody cared for Moby Dick when it was published, but we do now. This was a choice & if we're going to chose what matters like that, and make a case for it until it's worked itself into the history down the line, we might as well exercise that ability! Not to say "well, this is really where that sound came from, even though nobody making the music heard it at the time" but instead to say "this Singh fellow's music absolutely smokes any of RDJ's acid noodling, it's worth celebrating"

I feel like this post is getting a little off topic, and if this kind of thing hasn't been done to death on the forums already I might open up a different thread to argue about genre and views of history and explain myself a bit more coherently. But this is fun, very insightful, keep 'em coming
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich

IdleRich
blissblogger said:
I knew I had heard something that was totally "dub producer X invents acid house" and I think this must be it. Couldn't dredge it from memory and then did remember the Joe Gibbs tune

There are lots of kinda techno-in-advance or sort-of acieeed-in-advance bits scattered through jazz-fusion records and prog-rock records of the '70s, but it'll be a little moment, a brief flourish - and then they launch into the maximalist multi-segmented thing with tempo-shifts and meter-shifts. In some ways the innovation of acid house is deciding "actually we can make this weird wibbling noise the whole of the tune and just stay stuck on it with no development"

You get them in some soul and funk records too, like this mad bit at the end of the otherwise straightforward clavinet-funk (and awesome) tune "Finders Keepers" by Chairmen of the Board

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I love this tune. When we DJ in Salon des Amateurs in Dusseldorf Detlef used to encourage us to be eclectic, by which I think he meant don't just play four to the four stuff at the same tempo all night, and so we normally mix up a load of teutonic flavoured electronic stuff with post-punk and such, but one time - I really don't know why I picked out that particular record out of the ones I have that are broadly quite similar and would have fitted equally well (ie badly), perhaps I had recently purchased it but that seems unlikely - I decided to play Finders Keepers and the crowd qent absolutely fucking nuts. After that I made a habit of playing it pretty often in the middle of otherwise electronic sets - I guess to varying degrees of success but it did go off like that again several more times.
 
P

phil.

Well-known member
Also completely ashamed that I neglected to include this in my original post:
Derrick May was my best friend at the time and he lived off East Jefferson where WGPR was, the station Mojo was at. When Mojo went off the air, he would stop by this café to wind down. This was when arcade games were real popular, so every restaurant or café had a couple of arcade games like Pac-Man and Defender. Derrick was a Defender fan, and he would play, waiting for Mojo to come through, and of course, he showed up [one day]. So Derrick said to Mojo, ‘Man, I’ve got a friend with this music and you probably should hear it.’ Mojo was into this reggae excursion at the time; he would go into these tangents with different styles of music. So we went into his office and he had this reggae record playing on his little turntable – he didn’t take the record off the turntable – and he said, ‘If your track makes me take off the record, then it’s a hit.’ He put our tape on and both of these tracks were playing at the same time. Then he picked the needle up off the reggae record and said, ‘Yeah, I love it.’” Two days later, “Alleys of Your Mind” was on the radio.
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P

phil.

Well-known member
I was checking out the second volume of the Soul Jazz Chicago Acid & Experimental House comp 'cause Tim Lawrence's liner notes for the first were so great. Anyways, one review mentioned this:
Acid comes packaged with a short graphic novel by Paolo Parisi that offers an alternate acid house history, where the style plays a part in an ongoing battle between extradimensional creatures in which the digital dancehall of early-80s Jamaica also had a role. That’s obviously not how things really went down, but hearing the radical way that acid house producers were warping and twisting sound back then it would be easy to believe that aliens were involved somehow.
Click to expand...
So I was wondering, does anyone here happen to have a copy of the comic that came with uh "Mysterons Invade The Jackin' Zone: Chicago Acid and Experimental House 1986-93" that they wouldn't mind scanning? Or, even better, does anyone know if there's some actual writing on the topic?

This thread was intended to be a fun exercise in arguing in bad faith, but in this case I'm actually interested if there's any real connections to be made (however slight). Given how deranged Ron Hardy's selections at the Music Box could be it seems like there could be more fertile ground here. I mean, with the proper Hardy tape edit treatment this certainly wouldn't have sounded out of place.

Noel Davy - "Under Me Fat Thing Version" (1985)
 
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