Galloway vs Hitchens
- Thread starter luka
- Start date
Paul Hotflush
techno head
I'm not a big fan of neocon thought, mainly because it's so moralistic. Neither am I a big fan of traditional leftwing politics, in any case it's been completely discredited in various different ways.
And I'm DEFINITELY not a big fan of people like you two slagging things off which you clearly know very little about.
And I'm DEFINITELY not a big fan of people like you two slagging things off which you clearly know very little about.
k-punk
Spectres of Mark
Much as I enjoy your trolling, Paul, it would be nice to see some evidence of EITHER
(1) Some of the knowledge of which you boast or
(2) Our lack of knowledge.
btw, the point about Americans not being able to find Iraq on the map is not xenophobic, unless it is xenophobic to report known facts. Besides, being anti-American is not xenophobic. Xenophobia is the irrational fear and loathing of ALL foreigners, whereas I should have thought that a fear of Americans was pretty rational, really.
(1) Some of the knowledge of which you boast or
(2) Our lack of knowledge.
btw, the point about Americans not being able to find Iraq on the map is not xenophobic, unless it is xenophobic to report known facts. Besides, being anti-American is not xenophobic. Xenophobia is the irrational fear and loathing of ALL foreigners, whereas I should have thought that a fear of Americans was pretty rational, really.
luka
Well-known member
what paul is pointing out is that a)mark made a cheap easy sneering attack on americans at large (can't point to it on the map...) not a detailed critique of us foreign policy, a subject he knows nothing about.
i'm not opposed to that sort of thing, i do it too.
he's also making the same points craner keeps making, points which mark is thoroughly familiar with. if anyones being a troll its mark, as per usual.
i don't share hotflushes point of view but pretending you don't know where he's coming from is tiresome and pointless.
i'm not opposed to that sort of thing, i do it too.
he's also making the same points craner keeps making, points which mark is thoroughly familiar with. if anyones being a troll its mark, as per usual.
i don't share hotflushes point of view but pretending you don't know where he's coming from is tiresome and pointless.
craner
Beast of Burden
But anyway, who killed the Bush doctrine?
k-punk said:
errr, i'd say that's anti-american propaganda
it should suffice to observe that americans know less about other cultures, and are less versed in other languages, etc, than the citizens of practically any other nation
certainly americans' ignorance of iraqi and arab culture allows the former to think in terms of "us" vs. "them," and to view them as less than human and with little or no sympathy
nor can americans possibly imagine what it'd be like to be on the receiving end of american fire power
at the same time, i get impatient with people who lambast america as though other countries would not be similarly cruel/ignorant/callous if they had comparable military power
the people who run american foreign policy are ruthless and cold blooded -- this should be taken as a given for the ruling elites of any great military power at any time in history
the only real question is whether, in addition to being ruthless and cold blooded, the american policy makers are smart or foolhardy -- and on this one, the jury is still out b/c it isn't entirely clear on how things will go down in the middle east or even what the actual goal is (i.e., i for one think the main object is to park u.s. army in middle east and control oil supplies by brute force once the oil shortage turns seriously painfu)l
but of course they don't give a damn about the iraqi people -- nor do they care about most americans
and yet do you really think things would be better if another country were calling the shots???
or are you judging american power against the imaginary standard of a benevolent world socialist govt?
k-punk said:
yes, now you're being reasonable again
On the subject of American Geography comprehension, check out this video from Australian satire show CNNNNNN:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002454.html#002454
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/002454.html#002454
k-punk
Spectres of Mark
dominic said:
Yes and one of the results of that is just the sort of thing I described. This survey, admittedly not that representative, by the Mirror confirms the truth of this 'propaganda'.... Surely it is well-known, though, that Americans are in general massively insular by comparison with, say, Europeans, and have limited interest or knowledge in what's going outside their own country, something confirmed by the fact that so few Americans have passports.
Probably not; you're right, the American sitation is in many ways a structural effect of having been the world's most powerful country...
No, it really was a straight comparison between Europe, condemned by troll above as xenophobic, and America. Although in one sense, I suppose, many Americans are in a literal sense so ignorant of other countries that tit is not even possible for them to be xenophobic.
The neo-con agenda (Project for New American Century etc) is straightforwardly neo-imperialist, operating uder an assumption of other nations' inferiority. The Project website states that it believes that ' American leadership is good both for America and for the world; and that such leadership requires military strength, diplomatic energy and commitment to moral principle.' It's Manifest Destiny redux.
k-punk said:
so few passports in relation to whom?
if you mean as compared with europeans, then surely i don't need to explain to you that european countries are much closer to each other geographically than america is to other countries
k-punk said:
and in another sense, unless a person actually lives for a lengthy period in a country or, doing things the old-fashioned way, reads a lot of books about a particular country or region, then surely he's only marginally less ignorant of conditions there -- surely you're not going to argue that most tourists have any real knowledge of the places they visit? i.e., i have the opportunity to talk with a lot of european tourists on a fairly regular basis, and for the most part i haven't been impressed by their take on america (which is not to say i'm final arbiter on all things american, or that i have anything approaching a good understanding of their countries -- merely to say that if you don't live somewhere, then you really don't know)
k-punk said:
yeah, but i'm not sure how much such "idealists" are driving the policy -- i.e., this is the rhetoric for public consumption -- and if they believe their own words, then they're quite clearly fools
surely there are others in the state department, pentagon, etc -- plus all the texas oil movers and shakers -- who are playing a different, far more cynical, but also possibly more "intelligent" game -- i.e., in the world that is shaping up for the 21st century, open resort to brute methods and deadly military force may be the best way for today's elite to maintain their position -- hardly noble or inspiring, but kinda smart -- if you define "smart" as securing your own narrow self-interest