thirdform

Well-known member
I mean this is the thing I was trying to say to @DannyL - conspiracy theory arguments are in part unfalsifiable. They are designed to work that way. You show someone evidence xyz isn't the case and then they will cite an obscure footnote or an obscure article. If you have a life dedicated to debunking conspiracies it's like dedicating your whole life to finding a response to every argument for the existence of God. The key is to see where these crude personalisations of shadowy elites and the powers that be (this is why I use the more technical bourgeoisie btw because even that formulation in mainstream politics ranks of conspiracism to me.) It is dangerous to say for instance that theories of moral decline are fine when they are crude anti-elitist and a defence of the common man but not when they are reactionary and far right/disinformation related. This is why I linked that article, which talks about the nostalgism inherent in this sort of political thinking.
 

sufi

осом
I mean this is the thing I was trying to say to @DannyL - conspiracy theory arguments are in part unfalsifiable. They are designed to work that way. You show someone evidence xyz isn't the case and then they will cite an obscure footnote or an obscure article. If you have a life dedicated to debunking conspiracies it's like dedicating your whole life to finding a response to every argument for the existence of God. The key is to see where these crude personalisations of shadowy elites and the powers that be (this is why I use the more technical bourgeoisie btw because even that formulation in mainstream politics ranks of conspiracism to me.) It is dangerous to say for instance that theories of moral decline are fine when they are crude anti-elitist and a defence of the common man but not when they are reactionary and far right/disinformation related. This is why I linked that article, which talks about the nostalgism inherent in this sort of political thinking.
almost the first sensible thing anyone wrote on this thread

CTs are a result of debased rationalism, as soon as you set up a situation where it's not realistic to expect evidence to be available - e.g. a conspiracy, then scientific method defaults to supporting the conspiracy, bypassing judgement or morality
 

thirdform

Well-known member
If you are going to claim that objective truth or shared truth has broken down, you have to understand how that has happened. You can't get high horse about it (not saying this is what you are doing btw just talking about general trends in politico circles.) But It's not all Putin's or China's doing. Not even individuals doing. These are systematic changes that have been occurring over decades.
 

sufi

осом
No i don't think objective or shared truth has broken down, just that the tools we use to identify it are not working any more due to slavish reliance on defunct methodologies = rationalism doesn't work properly on them and so CTs are thriving because they have immunity, like junk antibiotics
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
One of the things you have to reckon with if you do want to establish Truth is conspiracy, in a broad sense, encompassing all the lies, secrets, propaganda and disinformation stemming from governments, intelligence agencies state and private, lobby groups, advertisers, commercial interests so on and so forth. Stemming from, in short, everyone with a stake in maintaining or seeding a lie. You can't just go back to believing whatever it says on the BBC because at least that way we all believe in the same bollocks.
 
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thirdform

Well-known member
No i don't think objective or shared truth has broken down, just that the tools we use to identify it are not working any more due to slavish reliance on defunct methodologies = rationalism doesn't work properly on them and so CTs are thriving because they have immunity, like junk antibiotics

I agree.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
not sure what Sufi is saying, I can follow little bits of what third is saying, I think.
 

sufi

осом
One of the things you have to reckon with if you do want to establish Truth is conspiracy, in a broad sense, encompassing all the lies, secrets and disinformation stemming from governments, intelligence agencies state and private, lobby groups, advertisers, commercial interests so on and so forth. Stemming from, in short, everyone with a stake in maintaining or seeding a lie. You can't just go back to believing whatever it says on the BBC because at least that way we all believe in the same bollocks.
i think all that disinfo has reduced our confidence in picking out the truths from the bullshit, so the trigger topics = Anti-semititsm, TERF/trans etc as well as a lot of regular politics gets stuck in loops increasingly removed from reality or usefulness
 

sufi

осом
This is brilliant because, as has happened on this thread a couple of times, the fake conspiracy is peeled back to reveal (allegedly) a real conspiracy festering underneath, thus demolishing both reality and conspiracy based arguments :love:
 

WashYourHands

Well-known member
No such noises from the UK or US:


Fronting Bolsanarian bs and then reposting it elsewhere isn’t saying much when you rally against our own bunch of fuckwits

i understand nothing contrary to your default control program is ever going to get through or be acknowledged, that anyone who sees something contrary to you are therefore sheeple, but I‘ve seen more sense on Reddit

it’s a tough enough time and there are possibly years of this disruption ahead, be grateful instead of the Goebbels of gerbils
 
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