classical music

subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
simon silverdollar said:
i know nothing about it. what should i listen to? how should i listen to it?

I wrote the following a couple of years ago...

I think it all depends on where you're coming from. I arrived from punk and new wave and the post punk electronic experimentation of groups like Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle, and was therefore attracted most to noisy and rhythmic stuff. I had no interest (at the time) in 'proper' classical music (i.e. Beethoven, Mozart, etc.) which my parents listened to. Instead I got into modern music and very old music...

Bartok - String Quartets
#2 is the one to start with; the second movement is very rhythmic
#4 is a more high-powered version of #2 and moves through different formats, including a long cello solo, a entirely pizzicato movement, and a wild hungarian gypsy tearout (the final movement)
the other quartets are a more acquired taste

Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring
a rhythmic tour de force - an orchestral ballet of a pagan ritual
follow this with...
Bartok - Music For Strings. Percussion & Celeste
Messiaen - Turangalila Symphony (maybe — it's rather long)

Berio - Points On The Curve To Find
this is based on a fast moving continuous single line piano part consisting mostly of trills and shakes and little riffs. It's very complicated but also very simple as there's a definite hook (the piano)

John Cage - Constructions for percussion
John Cage - Sonatas & Interludes for Prepared Piano
the constructions are pioneering percussion ensemble pieces
the prepared piano arises from these; it was such a pain carting all the percussion gear around that Cage found a way to do something similar on a single instrument: by sticking screws and nails and things in between the strings of the piano

Ligeti - Volumina
a great big mass of tone clusters leading to a powerful dark swirling sound; there's plenty of orchestral stuff along the same lines, but it works to best effect I think on the solo organ. If you can find it, get Gerd Zacher's recording, since this also includes his unique version of the organ study "Harmonies". Zacher replaces the electronic organ blower with a vacuum cleaner, so as the clusters increase the wind force gets progressively less, producing a weird muddy sound that gradually fades away.

from the other end...

David Munrow & the Early Music Consort of London
all these recordings are worth checking, but in the context of the stuff above try and find...

The Late Fourteenth Century Avant-Garde
This was self-conciously arty stuff (from the 1300s!) and pioneers a lot of techniques that weren't revisited until the 20th Century.

Music from the Time of the Crusades
mostly 13th century, very stark and forthright music

more later :)
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
simon silverdollar said:
how should i listen to it?

However you want. Like all music some of it works better as background music, or better as foreground; you've just got to listen and figure out what works for you. If you want to listen seriously, I guess the best tips would be to listen out for connections between sounds, melodies, chords; get a sense of where the music is pulling you, the patterns of tension and release. A lot of classical music - though less so the non-minimal stuff - works on some level if you approach like you would a novel, with characters, scenes, plots etc. The plot only really works if you hold all the different characters and the relationships to one another in your mind as you read, and to an extent the same holds with music.

That's a slightly dodgy analogy, but hopefully it gives you a start. The most important thing if you want to approach classical music seriously is to listen; there are subtleties and complexities in the sounds, and their arrangement in time, that you almost never get anywhere else.

Some tips that haven't been mentioned yet:

Tristan Murail: not at all a minimalist, but if you're coming from a minimalist/electronica direction he fits the bill. Lush, often quite static music, extremely sensitive approach to sound.

Olivier Messiaen: Murail's teacher (and Stockhausen, Boulez's and everyone elses). The opposite of Murail in some ways - hugely dramatic pieces. All about Nature, God, sex and synaesthesia. An acquired taste but deliriously bonkers once you've got it. Start with Quartet for the End of Time (written and first performed in a German POW camp), Turangalila-Symphonie (this one is all about shagging), or L'Ascension (for organ or orchestra; the former is a favourite amongst organists, but they're both good).

Wolfgang Rihm: One of the most important composers alive; with Helmut Lachenmann he heads the post-Stockhausen generation of German composers. Complex music, but very rewarding. He has some stuff on eMusic which I recommend.

Gyorgy Kurtag: Ligeti's former colleague and friend. Unlike Ligeti though he's still cranking 'em out, and with a gun to my head I couldn't tell you who was the better composer. A massively influential figure (he's also taught many of the world's best performers). His music is often quite short, or in many short sections, it's usually light, very original, very approachable, and completely brilliant. Nothing like Ligeti by the way; more like Bartok crossed with Webern crossed with Schumann. Which if you look it up is the formula for genius. There's an absolutely essential disc of piano music on ECM, but any of the ECM Kurtag recordings are very recommended.

On a classical classical tip: always start with Bach. But move quickly onto Perotin (12th-century inventor of polyphony. Completely amazing, unexpected music), John Dowland (England's greatest songwriter), Josquin DesPrez (Renaissance master), Monteverdi (a crucial figure in the birth of opera, the concerto and the whole of the Baroque), Mozart (you know you shouldn't, but you can't help it), late Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, Debussy. All of these are available on Naxos CDs, so you're risking only a fiver a pop. (Edit: there's some Debussy right now on Free Albums Galore)
 
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Grievous Angel

Beast of Burden
Wicked thread.

The Bach I've heard thus far I don't like :). No doubt that will change. Can't remember which tunes.

For how to listen - I tend to put Radio 3 on when driving around. Heard some amazing gear on there. And we always put Classic FM on on Sunday mornings to listen to the Big Choons. It's ace. I heard an aria from La Boheme that blew me away, and I really don't like opera much.

I really like lush, limpid, ambient, warm, classical strings. Anyone got some recommendations? I think Arvo Part and Gorecki might be a bit ruff for me.
 
F

foret

Guest
Rambler said:
However you want. Like all music some of it works better as background music, or better as foreground; you've just got to listen and figure out what works for you. If you want to listen seriously, I guess the best tips would be to listen out for connections between sounds, melodies, chords; get a sense of where the music is pulling you, the patterns of tension and release. A lot of classical music - though less so the non-minimal stuff - works on some level if you approach like you would a novel, with characters, scenes, plots etc. The plot only really works if you hold all the different characters and the relationships to one another in your mind as you read, and to an extent the same holds with music.

That's a slightly dodgy analogy, but hopefully it gives you a start. The most important thing if you want to approach classical music seriously is to listen; there are subtleties and complexities in the sounds, and their arrangement in time, that you almost never get anywhere else.

Some tips that haven't been mentioned yet:

Tristan Murail: not at all a minimalist, but if you're coming from a minimalist/electronica direction he fits the bill. Lush, often quite static music, extremely sensitive approach to sound.

Olivier Messiaen: Murail's teacher (and Stockhausen, Boulez's and everyone elses). The opposite of Murail in some ways - hugely dramatic pieces. All about Nature, God, sex and synaesthesia. An acquired taste but deliriously bonkers once you've got it. Start with Quartet for the End of Time (written and first performed in a German POW camp), Turangalila-Symphonie (this one is all about shagging), or L'Ascension (for organ or orchestra; the former is a favourite amongst organists, but they're both good).

Wolfgang Rihm: One of the most important composers alive; with Helmut Lachenmann he heads the post-Stockhausen generation of German composers. Complex music, but very rewarding. He has some stuff on eMusic which I recommend.

Gyorgy Kurtag: Ligeti's former colleague and friend. Unlike Ligeti though he's still cranking 'em out, and with a gun to my head I couldn't tell you who was the better composer. A massively influential figure (he's also taught many of the world's best performers). His music is often quite short, or in many short sections, it's usually light, very original, very approachable, and completely brilliant. Nothing like Ligeti by the way; more like Bartok crossed with Webern crossed with Schumann. Which if you look it up is the formula for genius. There's an absolutely essential disc of piano music on ECM, but any of the ECM Kurtag recordings are very recommended.

On a classical classical tip: always start with Bach. But move quickly onto Perotin (12th-century inventor of polyphony. Completely amazing, unexpected music), John Dowland (England's greatest songwriter), Josquin DesPrez (Renaissance master), Monteverdi (a crucial figure in the birth of opera, the concerto and the whole of the Baroque), Mozart (you know you shouldn't, but you can't help it), late Beethoven, Chopin, Schumann, Debussy. All of these are available on Naxos CDs, so you're risking only a fiver a pop. (Edit: there's some Debussy right now on Free Albums Galore)

is ligeti definitely writing nothing new?
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
Pretty much. The third book of etudes is apparently still ongoing, but a new one hasn't appeared for a couple of years. He's old, very sick, and apparently quite a recluse these days, so I wouldn't hold your breath for anything new.
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
2stepfan said:
I really like lush, limpid, ambient, warm, classical strings. Anyone got some recommendations? I think Arvo Part and Gorecki might be a bit ruff for me.

You know Ralph Vaughan Williams, right?
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
2stepfan said:
I really like lush, limpid, ambient, warm, classical strings. Anyone got some recommendations?
Mahler is your man.

Also try Villa-Lobos (yes, there's a classical composer of that name too), some of his Choros and Bachianas Brasilieras-pieces are super lush and warm (as far as I remember, it's actually some time ago I've heard them last). He's usaually seen as a kind of brazillian Debussy. Oh yeah, try Debussy too.

And maybe Hindemiths Harmonie der Welt-symphony (rather than the opera of the same name), he is usually supposed to be this rather cold and dry neo classicist, but this one contain some of the most warm, expanding, organic sounding orchestral music I've ever heard
 

dHarry

Well-known member
This is an obviously middle-of-the-road choice, but since most of my faves from Bach to Ligeti have been mentioned already, what about Vivaldi? Yes, The Four Seasons you think you're bored with from endless film use etc - listen right through and it's a thrilling ride - those massed ranks of violently sawing violins generate quite bit of friction, somewhere between metal and ardkore at times. Strings of life and all that. I think there are more radical recent recordings that emphasise this dynamism, but even the trad versions thrill.

2stepfan - that lush, limpid, ambient etc strings request - try Takemitsu also - and Paart, who isn't ruff at all (actually he's kind of the modern Vivaldi/Mozart, the middlebrow's choice for "spiritually uplifting" in-a-Sunday-service/organ-recital sort of way, a bit too worthy and nice, but can be hypnotically beautiful at times, for all that).
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
confucius said:
from the fact that you prolly like modern electronic music, I would start exploring the 20th century composers. I listen to classical when I'm sick of everything else / in a clear mind / to keep a clear mind.

minimalists obvious place to begin - Steve Reich, Terry Reiley, La Monte Young, (but Phil Glass should be avoided at all costs).

and as other mentioned: Eric Satie, Morton Feldman, Arvo Part. - all immediately get-into-able.

later you can venture into the Ligetti's and Nono's of the world.

Don't miss out on old stuff though. You wouldn't advise someone to stick exclusively to Herbie Hancock and ignore Duke Ellington just because they started out from a funk background...

My advice (bearing in mind that opinions are like assholes) is normally to start with early twentieth century stuff, since it's pretty easy to get a handle on the dramatics / atmospherics, and from there you can branch forward into serialism and beyond, or backwards into romanticism and classicism. Minimalism, afaict, is a bit of an odd one to start with since, while it's very excellent, it's not really continuous with the rest of the western classical tradition.

incidentally, one of the holy grails of recorded modern music - La Monte Young's Well Tuned Piano - for the longest time the only available second hand copy of which costs $500 on Amazon, has just been put up for free download on this blog:

classicalconnection.blogspot.com/

scroll down to first post.
Woah! Astounding. *heads off to download it*
 

Rambler

Awanturnik
confucius said:
incidentally, one of the holy grails of recorded modern music - La Monte Young's Well Tuned Piano - for the longest time the only available second hand copy of which costs $500 on Amazon, has just been put up for free download on this blog:

classicalconnection.blogspot.com/

scroll down to first post.

!!!!!!!!!!

That's a great blog; thanks for the heads up!
 

shudder

Well-known member
lots of great things already recommended. Here are some more.. :)

Bach - Yup yup, his keyboard works are amazing. Listen to to the Goldbergs for a taste of the wiiiide range of things he does. The Well-Tempered Clavier (aka Preludes and Fugues) are amazing amazing . Listen to the g minor one from the first book. BUT after you've had your fill of the keyboard stuff, take a listen to his sonatas and partitas for solo violin. ESPECIALLY the one in d minor. They are astonishing. The last movement of the d minor partita is a chaconne, and it one of the greatest pieces in his output. In fact, I just uploaded it here. You might even want to listen to all 12 minutes straight through... :)

Tallis - Hauntology? yup. Listen to his masterpiece for 40 VOICES, Spem in alium nunqua. WOW.

Debussy - First got into him by playing the easier piano stuff, but his Prélude à l'aprés-midi d'un faune and La mer, both for orchestra, are wonderful. The prelude is particularly amazing - it's based on this 110 line poem by Mallarmé, and is itself 110 bars.. not that they all line up or anything silly, and it doesn't quite straightforwardly *depict* the poem, but it's amazing. The stuff which happens at measure 63 (I think), the golden section of the piece, is just amazing... ( I took a music course last semester on debussy's 'musical poetics', and his stuff has never sounded the same since to me...)
 

Badmarsh

Well-known member
I'm not being racist, but classical music is so white boy...its had implications that run deep. Now this is not saying its badly made music...musically its very superior...read into superior as u wish...ya see meh?
 
S

simon silverdollar

Guest
Badmarsh said:
I'm not being racist, but classical music is so white boy...its had implications that run deep. Now this is not saying its badly made music...musically its very superior...read into superior as u wish...ya see meh?

eh? just about every aspect of Western culture has had implications which 'run deep' in the sense of being taken up and contributing to a racist or imperialistic world view, because Western civilisation has, for the large part, been racist and imperialistic.
But it would be crazy to stop engaging with that culture on that basis: it would mean detaching yourself from 2000 years of culture (which i seem to remember atari teenage riot being keen on, but still...!) which firstly is not something you really can do, nor is it something that you should.

nutters, imperialists and racists will always take up art for their own ends. that doesn't invalidate the art, nor does it necessarily show that there are strictly speaking 'implications' for such world views inherent in the art itself: i doubt composers in the 13th century were really bothered about shoring up a sense of western superiority. the question would be unlikely to even arise.
 

hamarplazt

100% No Soul Guaranteed
Badmarsh said:
I'm not being racist, but classical music is so white boy...its had implications that run deep. Now this is not saying its badly made music...musically its very superior...read into superior as u wish...ya see meh?
This seems to imply that all kinds of "classical" are more or less alike, one collective movement, which is really quite ridiculous. We're talking about hundreds of years of music, from a range of very different countries. Sure, "classical" is basically a white, european music, but except for that it goes in so many different directions, and its history is full of mavericks, isolated weirdos and people generally doing things in ways that don't fit the "great west european tradition"-image at all.

You could say that classicals greatest problem is probably that its too dependent on institutional cannonisation. Stuff like Weill and Berg, once seen as sick, decadent, subversive (indeed "entartete kunst" - not exactly "white boy") have now become fully embraced as a part of the great european cannon, rather than a threat to it. There certainly is a line of thinking suggesting that the classical tradition is the undisputed fronteer of all music, and that it indeed is superior to popular music. However, you can find similar purist, snobbish views from theorist of pretty much every kind of music, no matter how black or popular. Would you dismiss, say, Juan Atkins, because of the silly "proper techno" detroit mythology held by such a large amount of sad elitists? Or would you dismiss Fela Kuti for being an african nationalist, for being "so black boy"?
 

borderpolice

Well-known member
Badmarsh said:
I'm not being racist, but

yes, you are!

Badmarsh said:
musically its very superior...read into superior as u wish...ya see meh?

Well, in what sense superior. Harmonically, very possibly. in terms of rhythm? west african traditional music is more sophisticated. Melodic complexity? Better look to indian stuff. richness of sounds? no musical tradition in the world comes within a billion lightyears of contemporary (electronic) pop music. (another distinguishing feature of classical music is that it seems to have been the first to turn reflective and consciously tried to abandon its own traditions and replace them by something radically new and selkf-created, rather than transmitted by tradition. this torch has been picked up by various other genres these days.)
 
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borderpolice

Well-known member
gek-opel said:
are there pockets of incredibly exciting, mind blowing stuff being created...?

My considered opinion on the matter would be, in first approximation, a firm no.

But maybe the question is not appropriate to the subject matter. Contemporary classical music is not the kind of music that would lead itself to displays of mass excitment, that are what makes popular music so ... well, exciting.
 

Dylan

New member
Interesting thread. Part of the problem (possibly) in assessing the merits and excitement of contemporary “classical” music (a term which makes little sense) is that a large part of contemporary composition is academic. So, in the departments a different criterion is established than what the casual listener might expect. From the outside, this kind of academic composition is only interesting on a technical plane.

For what it’s worth, I’d mention the following:

Schnittke: Concerto Grosso No. 2. This is an incredible piece of music, a good introduction to Schnittke’s mastery of disjoining musical passages. Also: exciting and dramatic, without cheap pathos. Listen in particular to the jazz passage in the third movement. Genius.

Terterian: Symphony No. 3. Armenian composer. Seems to have gone largely undetected. This is great, though. Essentially, the symphony is built around rhythms, rather than harmony. Worth listening to the later symphonies too, which are bit sparser. Here's a site where the symphonies can be downloaded: http://www.terterian.org/

Kancheli: Trauerfarbenes Land. Some people are not so keen on Kancheli, probably because he reverts back to a post-Mahlerian subjectivism. I think he is far more challenging than this. All of Kancheli’s music is very spatial, often compared to the landscapes of Tarkovsky. He is sometimes associated with dynamic stasis, which pushes Mahler’s bi-polarity to an extreme edge. Hauntological in the sense of past which refuses to remain repressed.

Also:

Andreiessen: De Tijd
Henze: Symphony 7
Sumera: Symphony 3
Silvestrov: Symphony 5
 
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subvert47

I don't fight, I run away
shudder said:
Listen to his masterpiece for 40 VOICES, Spem in alium nunqua


m habui :)

great stuff. Tallis is the master.

check the short motet O nata lux which has the most gorgeous crunching false relations. Awesome.
 
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