Polystyle: I'm sure we shall adapt even in a post-collapse situation. And who is to say that it will necessarily be viewed as a bad thing in the end? It will ultimately be traumatic in an almost incomprehensible way for us, those of us who have to live through it, but out the other side? If humans continue to live will they really look back with Riddley Walker's melancholy?
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Climate change and environmental collapse-ultimate challenge to the capitalist "real"?
- Thread starter gek-opel
- Start date
bassnation
the abyss
gek-opel said:Polystyle: I'm sure we shall adapt even in a post-collapse situation. And who is to say that it will necessarily be viewed as a bad thing in the end? It will ultimately be traumatic in an almost incomprehensible way for us, those of us who have to live through it, but out the other side? If humans continue to live will they really look back with Riddley Walker's melancholy?
the ends justify the means? if life is rosy for people "on the other side", the price of all those lives is worth it?
i'm always wary when someone says other peoples lives are worth spending on a cause - whether its misplaced foreign adventures, communism or a return to pre-industrialised society - the latter being massively overrated in my eyes.
there was certainly misery back then and peoples lifespans were shorter. why is this necessarily a good thing to return to? because there'll be no advertising and kapital won't exist? and whos to say we won't go and invent capitalism all over again?
I wasn't saying that the end justifies the means, merely that those at the other end might not mind as much as we might like to think... FWIW I suspect we are all personally going to be hating it quite a lot, and I do not relish the prospect... however...
Sure it lets us live much longer, but I remain unconvinced as to how much "progress" we have really made, beyond trading one slice of life/time for another (ie- we live longer but most of our lives are now occupied with work that makes the average westerner miserable- in hunter-gatherer societies people only "worked" for three hours a day...)
Sure it lets us live much longer, but I remain unconvinced as to how much "progress" we have really made, beyond trading one slice of life/time for another (ie- we live longer but most of our lives are now occupied with work that makes the average westerner miserable- in hunter-gatherer societies people only "worked" for three hours a day...)
Hmm and aha
Troy , i will be having to trust in those 'en power to do something like the 'right thing' too late when the chips fall too , and as citizens we have some 'faith' in that 'will be done right'
- although everything i see points to the usual Pork spending and stuff their own pockets , their DeLay's , ENRONs and whatever PolitiCorp's they signed onto while patching a dam here , finding trailers for people there and taking Japanese PM's to Graceland for being 'loyal friend'.
Spied a number yesterday for saving the Cities from floodwaters in the area of 'hundreds of billions of dollars'
, hey throw out a number - we feel safer already .
Watching 9/11 from our bedroom window , the aftermath and effect on the island's day to day culture,
followed by the reports of the seemingly near ol' dirty bomb (that durty durty bomb progaganda)
that inroduced the 'Go Bag' to our WAR ON TERROR ALLTHE TIME peacetime vocab -
then having the summer city blackout a couple years ago had me following these trains of disaster thought.
Good thing i filled the tub with water before pressure ran out ,
could pull out the tiny camping stove and have some noodles that night , had a flashlight.
Arriving at the SuperM in time to snag the last bottled water the morning after was lucky,
and i probably only got the bread rolls left at the corner deli 'cause i know those Middle Eastern cats who own Deli's up and down Ave. A .
My decision to only make a 'food and water run' the day after also worked out ,
i didn't want to go up and down the 12 flights of stairs more then once while carrying water and stuff !
( with wife in Japan at the time , only had to 'shop' for one scrabler so that was a bit lucky too)
Out in the city at large , the blackout marked a party night; meat to be used before it got bad ,
luke beer better then none for some -
but by the second day , I started to see packs of teenage kids run
and went bk up to watch from the roof.
Had to take photos to commemorate because the skyline was so dark , town quiet and calm,
but wasn't looking forward to striking back out there the next day ...
It broke the second evening ,
but give any large city a few days , a week of large scale problems like no electricity , water or some transit
and the break down would be immense , some just won't make it
and we'll be talking differently from the other side.
I can imagine in these instances , different cities will react /act differently , Londinium different then say , LA
and Tokyo different from say , DC or Atlanta
but the plunge down into it could be swift and fatal and would take some of the Rich & Greedy right down with everybody .
I simply wish (dream on) that the 'smart' US would actually learn and apply lessions they should have learned in New Orleans and from all the hurricanes that have come so many times the names fast fade while repairs still not caught up.
Only some combination of passing of the 'old guards' time,
new faces coming in who may have actually not the sliver spoon firmly inserted and who have survived some disaster may finesse their area/quadrant through some bad times.
Possibly some 'Gore / Yeltsin of disasters' who rises , tolls the bells and raises the alarm - then sinks in the alluvial mud /smoked ruins later becoming a leader of those who made it to 'the other side'
Gek , wouldn't you look at your former home , say seen even only 1 year after a suitcase nuke contaminated your area , the old mags , Burial and dubstep CDR's all there from a former life
raise some tear in the possibly glowing dust ...
Mind you, the dirty nuke scenario is not an easy one to pull off and the damage probably quite limited.
It's really down to which way the wind blows , that day, that zero hour .
Those big crows took the windsock off the Cable TV antennae (again) ...
Troy , i will be having to trust in those 'en power to do something like the 'right thing' too late when the chips fall too , and as citizens we have some 'faith' in that 'will be done right'
- although everything i see points to the usual Pork spending and stuff their own pockets , their DeLay's , ENRONs and whatever PolitiCorp's they signed onto while patching a dam here , finding trailers for people there and taking Japanese PM's to Graceland for being 'loyal friend'.
Spied a number yesterday for saving the Cities from floodwaters in the area of 'hundreds of billions of dollars'
, hey throw out a number - we feel safer already .
Watching 9/11 from our bedroom window , the aftermath and effect on the island's day to day culture,
followed by the reports of the seemingly near ol' dirty bomb (that durty durty bomb progaganda)
that inroduced the 'Go Bag' to our WAR ON TERROR ALLTHE TIME peacetime vocab -
then having the summer city blackout a couple years ago had me following these trains of disaster thought.
Good thing i filled the tub with water before pressure ran out ,
could pull out the tiny camping stove and have some noodles that night , had a flashlight.
Arriving at the SuperM in time to snag the last bottled water the morning after was lucky,
and i probably only got the bread rolls left at the corner deli 'cause i know those Middle Eastern cats who own Deli's up and down Ave. A .
My decision to only make a 'food and water run' the day after also worked out ,
i didn't want to go up and down the 12 flights of stairs more then once while carrying water and stuff !
( with wife in Japan at the time , only had to 'shop' for one scrabler so that was a bit lucky too)
Out in the city at large , the blackout marked a party night; meat to be used before it got bad ,
luke beer better then none for some -
but by the second day , I started to see packs of teenage kids run
and went bk up to watch from the roof.
Had to take photos to commemorate because the skyline was so dark , town quiet and calm,
but wasn't looking forward to striking back out there the next day ...
It broke the second evening ,
but give any large city a few days , a week of large scale problems like no electricity , water or some transit
and the break down would be immense , some just won't make it
and we'll be talking differently from the other side.
I can imagine in these instances , different cities will react /act differently , Londinium different then say , LA
and Tokyo different from say , DC or Atlanta
but the plunge down into it could be swift and fatal and would take some of the Rich & Greedy right down with everybody .
I simply wish (dream on) that the 'smart' US would actually learn and apply lessions they should have learned in New Orleans and from all the hurricanes that have come so many times the names fast fade while repairs still not caught up.
Only some combination of passing of the 'old guards' time,
new faces coming in who may have actually not the sliver spoon firmly inserted and who have survived some disaster may finesse their area/quadrant through some bad times.
Possibly some 'Gore / Yeltsin of disasters' who rises , tolls the bells and raises the alarm - then sinks in the alluvial mud /smoked ruins later becoming a leader of those who made it to 'the other side'
Gek , wouldn't you look at your former home , say seen even only 1 year after a suitcase nuke contaminated your area , the old mags , Burial and dubstep CDR's all there from a former life
raise some tear in the possibly glowing dust ...
Mind you, the dirty nuke scenario is not an easy one to pull off and the damage probably quite limited.
It's really down to which way the wind blows , that day, that zero hour .
Those big crows took the windsock off the Cable TV antennae (again) ...
gek-opel said:in hunter-gatherer societies people only "worked" for three hours a day...)
What possible verification can you have for this? What do you mean by 'work' anyway, since you've put it in inverted commas?
bassnation
the abyss
dogger said:What possible verification can you have for this? What do you mean by 'work' anyway, since you've put it in inverted commas?
yeah, the "good old days" of the primitive hunter / gatherer society - when most women died young in childbirth and the line between survival and starvation was a thin one.
but hey, capitalism didn't exist so it must have been a veritable utopia.
whats wrong with progress if it saves peoples lives with modern medicine or makes their existence more comfortable? should we really feel ashamed of this? its extremely naive to imagine that any kind of human society is without its own problems, violence or exploitation.
Bassnation/Dogger: In pure hunter-gatherer societies (ie- not those with crops) labour has been approximated in a study I read to about 3 hrs per 24 hour period. "Work" consists of hunting/trapping and foraging. It might be more than this, but I suspect not much more on average...
I remain unconvinced that we have progressed much, merely exchanged some time here for some other time there, we're certainly not living in paradise, are we? Most women did not die in childbirth (more did die, yes, but surely not most?)... equally most modern "comforts" are little more than new forms of existential slavery... I am not claiming that life then was necessarily easier, or more extensive... just that it was not some living hell (or perhaps it was, but just of a different kind to the one we have now...)
Polystyle: Hmm. The situation you describe is agonizing. However, providing I can physically sustain myself- what exactly has been lost? Just possessions?
I remain unconvinced that we have progressed much, merely exchanged some time here for some other time there, we're certainly not living in paradise, are we? Most women did not die in childbirth (more did die, yes, but surely not most?)... equally most modern "comforts" are little more than new forms of existential slavery... I am not claiming that life then was necessarily easier, or more extensive... just that it was not some living hell (or perhaps it was, but just of a different kind to the one we have now...)
Polystyle: Hmm. The situation you describe is agonizing. However, providing I can physically sustain myself- what exactly has been lost? Just possessions?
bassnation
the abyss
gek-opel said:Bassnation/Dogger: In pure hunter-gatherer societies (ie- not those with crops) labour has been approximated in a study I read to about 3 hrs per 24 hour period. "Work" consists of hunting/trapping and foraging. It might be more than this, but I suspect not much more on average...
I remain unconvinced that we have progressed much, merely exchanged some time here for some other time there, we're certainly not living in paradise, are we? Most women did not die in childbirth (more did die, yes, but surely not most?)... equally most modern "comforts" are little more than new forms of existential slavery... I am not claiming that life then was necessarily easier, or more extensive... just that it was not some living hell (or perhaps it was, but just of a different kind to the one we have now...)
gek, the chances of a woman dying during childbirth was as high as 1 in 8 as recently as 200 years ago, let alone back then. do you realise how much of a challenge it is to give birth to an animal with such a large brain as a human being? its a trade off that mother nature made. without medical advancement the figure would be very much higher.
if you see this is a luxury, you have a very different view of the world than i do. its all very well looking at poverty and seeing it as some noble thing ("its just possessions") when you've never been anywhere near even relative poverty yourself. the reality is less noble than you imagine it to be. its insulting to the poor to play these games, i think. do you imagine all of us living in poverty would somehow make us more ethical beings?
and as for existential slavery, i actually enjoy my work and yes, i enjoy the little luxuries of modern western existence - as do you. we wouldn't even be having this conversation via the wonders of modern technology if you didn't. i suppose the next thing is that old chestnut about being so oppressed i don't even realise. i'm not buying it.
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Hmm- ok but is poverty not a relative concept? I talk not of the poor now, living in a world of incredible inequality, but of this future we have been discussing, where presumably there are no enclaves of Western privilege.
Also: this is not an urban poverty, but a return to a hunter-gatherer society. You hunt, you gather, you die relatively young, and at the first sign of serious sickness you are basically fucked. I'm not positing this as some kind of noble or ethical option... merely as one which is not necessarily worse than our own (where we have exchanged 50% of our lives for an extension in life length, rather than quality). It is this trade-off which is essential. Everything else (products, goods services) are mere frippery and distraction, given meaning in context but not in any sense absolute goods.
My idea with this thread was to interrogate the possibility that the collapse of our environment will challenge some of our basic conceptions of our interrelation with the world and each other...
Also: this is not an urban poverty, but a return to a hunter-gatherer society. You hunt, you gather, you die relatively young, and at the first sign of serious sickness you are basically fucked. I'm not positing this as some kind of noble or ethical option... merely as one which is not necessarily worse than our own (where we have exchanged 50% of our lives for an extension in life length, rather than quality). It is this trade-off which is essential. Everything else (products, goods services) are mere frippery and distraction, given meaning in context but not in any sense absolute goods.
My idea with this thread was to interrogate the possibility that the collapse of our environment will challenge some of our basic conceptions of our interrelation with the world and each other...
Great thread, Gek-Opel. (my last post was actually an attempt at humor)
It is an interesting idea... that calamity might change how people relate with the world and each other. But just as modern society is a reflection of basic human qualities (good and bad), so will any future society, whether it be post-armageddon or not. The basic unit (the person) needs to change for the whole (society) to change.
It's the same reasoning I used in my thread called "My Plan to Destry Capitalism", but maybe I shouldn't go there, as that thread got some Dissensians banned...
It is an interesting idea... that calamity might change how people relate with the world and each other. But just as modern society is a reflection of basic human qualities (good and bad), so will any future society, whether it be post-armageddon or not. The basic unit (the person) needs to change for the whole (society) to change.
It's the same reasoning I used in my thread called "My Plan to Destry Capitalism", but maybe I shouldn't go there, as that thread got some Dissensians banned...
The individual and collective mirror one another, and the environment.Troy said:It is an interesting idea... that calamity might change how people relate with the world and each other. But just as modern society is a reflection of basic human qualities (good and bad), so will any future society, whether it be post-armageddon or not. The basic unit (the person) needs to change for the whole (society) to change.
bassnation
the abyss
gek-opel said:Cheers Troy...
I was really looking for some Dissensians better-read than I to hit me up with some philosophical/political theory shit on the impact of these events, so I could fill my knowledge gaps in this area...
so...?
alright, you have some interesting ideas. so lets turn it round.
in what way do you think a hunter / gatherer lifestyle would benefit mankind?
do you, for example, think modern life has made us fat, lazy and complacent? do you think a short life filled with danger and death would fulfil us more? the whole james dean thing.
and lastly, if you went to sleep in your own bed tonight and woke up tomorrow in a pre-civilised society, how would you feel? what would you most miss and would it really be something important you couldn't live without (say, for example, your collected works of lacan, or maybe your nitendo game boy - its all the same, at least as far as hunter gatherers are concerned).
and extending said ridicolous and hypothetical situation, if you could take one item there with you, what would be? choose carefully, because back then there are no plug points. batteries count however, but obviously with diminishing returns.
do you think people would be aggressive, or would the light regime of three hours a day setting the traps lead to a generally chilled out vibe? at what point do you think the poisoned apple dropped into eden?
do you think its possible to put all that harmful knowledge back in the box? do you think its possible that hunter gatherer societies could stay as just that, without morphing into bigger and less amenable structures?
come on lets have your thoughts. i wish i could couch these questions in academic terms but sorry its just not me.
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gek-opel said:Bassnation/Dogger: In pure hunter-gatherer societies (ie- not those with crops) labour has been approximated in a study I read to about 3 hrs per 24 hour period. "Work" consists of hunting/trapping and foraging. It might be more than this, but I suspect not much more on average...
Would be interested to find out which study. Why is 'work' defined in such narrow terms? Doesn't all the time spent sitting around making tools etc also count as work, since it would have been necessary for survival? And have you ever tried lighting a fire without matches? That almost takes three hours on its own. It's also an outrageously sexist idea: doesn't looking after children count as 'work' as well (although our own society doesn't exactly credit it as such)? Sorry to quibble over details but it just seems like an outrageous claim to make, in support of a very tenuous idea i.e. that there was some form of Edenic pre-civilisation human existence to which we can potentially return.
Symphathise with your main points however, and think it is an interesting discussion.
Gek , is there philo/political theory on this ?
i would guess the po mo authors haven't gotten their hands in the dirt er, ... ever ?
all a bit up in the Tower and too 'klean' to garden let alone hunt & gather
But continuing to burrow into the thoughts here , ok 'hunter -gatherers' :
The world has woken up the day after - thrown into turmoil - broken down and they realize
nothing in the fridge , the corner shop is closed (and here in NYC) no Fresh Direct trucks are coming to deliver the good stuff to your door ...
Maybe those hippies 'out in the country' , the green thumb of the town , little plots of the dacha's are going to have something on hand / in hand and will be looking real good ...
to the rest of the armed and monied populace who didn't do a green thing.
The cities lose weight > starve while country Co ops hang on ?
The last Russian collective farm thumbs their noses while the consumers suffer ?
I can imagine the first Green Market's day here in a 'last days' crisis ...
green smears on the pavement and stiffening bodies all that's left in the trashed booths @ Union Sq.
Snipers covering raiders , thick plated cars from the PolitiCorp's , soldiers at the barricades.
Where would the first citizens be shot in a food riot ,
all batteries soon gone /stolen/bartered/hoarded ,
hand powered radios , TV's - (iPods !) , pressure's down so we drink from the rivers once the stores have been picked clean ...
'Who's your tribe ...' asks a voice coming out of the dark at the jerry rigged border ck,
it asks remarkably nicely the first time ...
i would guess the po mo authors haven't gotten their hands in the dirt er, ... ever ?
all a bit up in the Tower and too 'klean' to garden let alone hunt & gather
But continuing to burrow into the thoughts here , ok 'hunter -gatherers' :
The world has woken up the day after - thrown into turmoil - broken down and they realize
nothing in the fridge , the corner shop is closed (and here in NYC) no Fresh Direct trucks are coming to deliver the good stuff to your door ...
Maybe those hippies 'out in the country' , the green thumb of the town , little plots of the dacha's are going to have something on hand / in hand and will be looking real good ...
to the rest of the armed and monied populace who didn't do a green thing.
The cities lose weight > starve while country Co ops hang on ?
The last Russian collective farm thumbs their noses while the consumers suffer ?
I can imagine the first Green Market's day here in a 'last days' crisis ...
green smears on the pavement and stiffening bodies all that's left in the trashed booths @ Union Sq.
Snipers covering raiders , thick plated cars from the PolitiCorp's , soldiers at the barricades.
Where would the first citizens be shot in a food riot ,
all batteries soon gone /stolen/bartered/hoarded ,
hand powered radios , TV's - (iPods !) , pressure's down so we drink from the rivers once the stores have been picked clean ...
'Who's your tribe ...' asks a voice coming out of the dark at the jerry rigged border ck,
it asks remarkably nicely the first time ...
@ Dogger-- yes you're probably correct about the sexism re: childcare, however my source for this was a documentary on indigenous Congolese tribes (I think... memory hazy) and in a food rich environment- here a lush jungle- the time taken to hunt for food each day was 3 hours, of course many other life-tasks need to be completed at the same time- construction of shelters, religious ritual, childcare, cooking of food etc etc.
Its not so much a pre-Edenic civilisation I was on about really (though I think it ain't as bad as Bassnation would have us believe, but possibly not as good as I have been propounding either) but rather how environmental changes and resource crisis) which will occur in a creeping slow manner over the next century will give us the potential to rethink various systems of political and economic organisation... that instead of the dreamed of technological solutions to these grave dangers (needed so we can continue exactly as before) there might be imaginative solutions, requiring radical shifts in lifestyle, political organisation, and our own conceptions of how we interrelate with the world- ie a fundamental challenge to the hegemony of late capitalism.
The question really is how long it will take for different countries to stop believing they can simply go on as before with some modifications of behaviour and some more advanced technology? Cos the kind of post-apocalyptic tribe-world conceived of by Polystyle Desu, where dressed in rags we huddle around as the glowing back-light of the last powered-up i-pod slowly winks out before us will only occur if we continue to be as arrogant as we have been. If the problem is global, how can a system of government based around competing individual countries, each supporting thousands of competing individual corporations and companies actually effectively deal with this threat? There is a tension here-- either increased fragmentation to the point of neo-primitive tribes, or a new internationalism... though whether such a solution will be too late by then...
Its not so much a pre-Edenic civilisation I was on about really (though I think it ain't as bad as Bassnation would have us believe, but possibly not as good as I have been propounding either) but rather how environmental changes and resource crisis) which will occur in a creeping slow manner over the next century will give us the potential to rethink various systems of political and economic organisation... that instead of the dreamed of technological solutions to these grave dangers (needed so we can continue exactly as before) there might be imaginative solutions, requiring radical shifts in lifestyle, political organisation, and our own conceptions of how we interrelate with the world- ie a fundamental challenge to the hegemony of late capitalism.
The question really is how long it will take for different countries to stop believing they can simply go on as before with some modifications of behaviour and some more advanced technology? Cos the kind of post-apocalyptic tribe-world conceived of by Polystyle Desu, where dressed in rags we huddle around as the glowing back-light of the last powered-up i-pod slowly winks out before us will only occur if we continue to be as arrogant as we have been. If the problem is global, how can a system of government based around competing individual countries, each supporting thousands of competing individual corporations and companies actually effectively deal with this threat? There is a tension here-- either increased fragmentation to the point of neo-primitive tribes, or a new internationalism... though whether such a solution will be too late by then...
2020
A scattered tribe world is not something I look forward to ,
I only come to those conclusions based on observation ,
Sci Fi and cautionary Lit , movies , general enviornment and human trending.
I do think perhaps here in the States esp. since 9/11 -
but also before , there is still some 'well ,i'll just pick up and start again' hard core/hard scrabble mentality built in ( not that very far from the 'endless plain ' 'free country' , I want it - i shoot it ,make it mine mentality)
and so we end up 'existing into' what we expect
so a diet of scary news, science shows , news science shows and 24 has some rigged daily to deal .
Won't even get into the fact that whatever happens, the States , the US Corporation ,
will be right there , *ucking up but as Troy pointed - surviving too .
I'll be thinking about the last part of your reply Gek , the global possiblities
A scattered tribe world is not something I look forward to ,
I only come to those conclusions based on observation ,
Sci Fi and cautionary Lit , movies , general enviornment and human trending.
I do think perhaps here in the States esp. since 9/11 -
but also before , there is still some 'well ,i'll just pick up and start again' hard core/hard scrabble mentality built in ( not that very far from the 'endless plain ' 'free country' , I want it - i shoot it ,make it mine mentality)
and so we end up 'existing into' what we expect
so a diet of scary news, science shows , news science shows and 24 has some rigged daily to deal .
Won't even get into the fact that whatever happens, the States , the US Corporation ,
will be right there , *ucking up but as Troy pointed - surviving too .
I'll be thinking about the last part of your reply Gek , the global possiblities
Re: Primitive Society:
As Gek is aware, I recently went on a slightly bizarre holiday to Dorset, which was an introductory training course to Bushcraft and Survival skills. Some have mocked this as some tree-hugging, 'finding myself' exercise, but nothing could be further from the reality of my intensions or experience. It involved - building a shelter, sleeping in it for a week, primitive fire-lighting techniques (fireflash+knife+birch bark; Flint and Steel ; Friction by bow-drill), navigation, tracking, setting traps and snares, primitive fishing, food preparation and cooking (I skinned a rabbit and made a rather nice stew), water collection and treatment.
I mention this because, whilst the whole experience was fantastically fulfilling and re-energising, it did leave me feeling grateful for modern civilisation. Building a fire by friction is exceedingly hard work, takes hours, is exhausting, and there's no guarentee you'll actually manage it. And certainly the 3 hours work gek cites is way of the mark for temperate climates - there is surprisingly little vegetation that is edible (getting carbohydrates is particuarly difficult), so many more hours would be needed than that to find food - some agriculture would be necessary, and catching wild animals is always going to be hit and miss.
The experience was surprisingly re-energising, both mentally and physically. At the moment my exercise routine doesn't extend outside the walls of dmz, so to spend a week of continuous physical exertion, with the country air in my lungs, improved my health dramatically. The mental improvement was most notable though. The days consisted of specific tasks, all of which were completed by the end of the day, in stark contrast to the manner of my current employment, and the issues and difficulties that go with modern life. I slept beautifully, with none of the usual unresolved issue driven insomnia and exhausting REM sleep.
Undoubtedly these aspects were hugely satisfying, but by the end of the week, I was thoroughly looking forward to going back to london, to sleep in my own bed, to have running water, readily available food and warmth. But even more than that, it was clear that living like this would be incredibly boring. The daily grind of lighting a fire, maintaining it, and food collection and preparation would become unbearably dull.
Above all I came to appreciate some of my more recent musical experiences as the truly amazing achievements they are (a wonderfully energetic and puzzling Battles gig, DMZ, Alva Noto and Ryoji Ikeda at the Tate).
Re: Climate Change and Resource crisis against the Capitalist Real
Gek's right, the pressures of climate change and resource crisis may require a fundamental shift in economic and political structures. I'm not convinced by this construct of the 'Capitalist Real', in fact , I think that's a misleading and unhelpful term that K-p's put forward. Undoubtedly, the Reality aspect of that phrase deserves consideration - as an expression of current totalitarian control over thought/action and a reinforcement that the current state of affairs is the only possible one, the 'natural' one, the only alternative in this Globalised world.
It is the reference to Capitalism that I have a beef with. Both sides are happy to accept that the current situation is a capitalist one (by which i mean, the political elite, and k-pesque Marxists), as it suits their world views. But I would question that as a fact. Throughout all of the developed world, tax rates sit somewhere around the 40% mark. In other words, 40% of all goods and services are provided for by the state. That doesn't really sound that laissez-faire to me. Furthermore, the economy scarcely resembles any of the theoretical contructs that proponents of free-market economics use to justify their arguments, which necessarily imply a large number of small firms in each market. The reality is a small number of large firms.
The current reality can scarcely be described as Capitalist.
It would be better described as Monopolist Real.
I think thinking about it in those terms might yield better insight in to how climate change and resource crisis might break down the current reality - since a capitalist structure might well remain in tact, even a free market one, and may even provide the solution. The problem is one of monopolists reinforcing their market power through control of consumers (via increasingly sophisticated and deceptive marketing) and governments (from the process of Globalisation), leaving us with an imposed monoculture designed for as little disruption to the hegemony of the banks and big business as possible.
As Gek is aware, I recently went on a slightly bizarre holiday to Dorset, which was an introductory training course to Bushcraft and Survival skills. Some have mocked this as some tree-hugging, 'finding myself' exercise, but nothing could be further from the reality of my intensions or experience. It involved - building a shelter, sleeping in it for a week, primitive fire-lighting techniques (fireflash+knife+birch bark; Flint and Steel ; Friction by bow-drill), navigation, tracking, setting traps and snares, primitive fishing, food preparation and cooking (I skinned a rabbit and made a rather nice stew), water collection and treatment.
I mention this because, whilst the whole experience was fantastically fulfilling and re-energising, it did leave me feeling grateful for modern civilisation. Building a fire by friction is exceedingly hard work, takes hours, is exhausting, and there's no guarentee you'll actually manage it. And certainly the 3 hours work gek cites is way of the mark for temperate climates - there is surprisingly little vegetation that is edible (getting carbohydrates is particuarly difficult), so many more hours would be needed than that to find food - some agriculture would be necessary, and catching wild animals is always going to be hit and miss.
The experience was surprisingly re-energising, both mentally and physically. At the moment my exercise routine doesn't extend outside the walls of dmz, so to spend a week of continuous physical exertion, with the country air in my lungs, improved my health dramatically. The mental improvement was most notable though. The days consisted of specific tasks, all of which were completed by the end of the day, in stark contrast to the manner of my current employment, and the issues and difficulties that go with modern life. I slept beautifully, with none of the usual unresolved issue driven insomnia and exhausting REM sleep.
Undoubtedly these aspects were hugely satisfying, but by the end of the week, I was thoroughly looking forward to going back to london, to sleep in my own bed, to have running water, readily available food and warmth. But even more than that, it was clear that living like this would be incredibly boring. The daily grind of lighting a fire, maintaining it, and food collection and preparation would become unbearably dull.
Above all I came to appreciate some of my more recent musical experiences as the truly amazing achievements they are (a wonderfully energetic and puzzling Battles gig, DMZ, Alva Noto and Ryoji Ikeda at the Tate).
Re: Climate Change and Resource crisis against the Capitalist Real
Gek's right, the pressures of climate change and resource crisis may require a fundamental shift in economic and political structures. I'm not convinced by this construct of the 'Capitalist Real', in fact , I think that's a misleading and unhelpful term that K-p's put forward. Undoubtedly, the Reality aspect of that phrase deserves consideration - as an expression of current totalitarian control over thought/action and a reinforcement that the current state of affairs is the only possible one, the 'natural' one, the only alternative in this Globalised world.
It is the reference to Capitalism that I have a beef with. Both sides are happy to accept that the current situation is a capitalist one (by which i mean, the political elite, and k-pesque Marxists), as it suits their world views. But I would question that as a fact. Throughout all of the developed world, tax rates sit somewhere around the 40% mark. In other words, 40% of all goods and services are provided for by the state. That doesn't really sound that laissez-faire to me. Furthermore, the economy scarcely resembles any of the theoretical contructs that proponents of free-market economics use to justify their arguments, which necessarily imply a large number of small firms in each market. The reality is a small number of large firms.
The current reality can scarcely be described as Capitalist.
It would be better described as Monopolist Real.
I think thinking about it in those terms might yield better insight in to how climate change and resource crisis might break down the current reality - since a capitalist structure might well remain in tact, even a free market one, and may even provide the solution. The problem is one of monopolists reinforcing their market power through control of consumers (via increasingly sophisticated and deceptive marketing) and governments (from the process of Globalisation), leaving us with an imposed monoculture designed for as little disruption to the hegemony of the banks and big business as possible.
Big up Tatarsky...
Yeah the three hours thing only works in staggeringly rich environments such as jungle... I have read theories posited as to the eventual "success" of Chinese, European, and Middle Eastern civilisations throughout history being dependant on this, the greater difficulty of achieving basic subsistence leading to a broader variety of solutions and increased innovation... (Davies in "Europe- A History" I believe)
Yes "monopolist real" works well also because it links the economic monopoly to that which this stage has on the imagination... and yes, free-market economists use theory which corresponds little to practice to underpin their efforts to further extend these monopolies... (the endless galling US-laissez faire arguments for reduced regulation in developing nations obviously springs to mind, whilst they themselves maintain protectionist domestic policies on agriculture for example...)
Yeah the three hours thing only works in staggeringly rich environments such as jungle... I have read theories posited as to the eventual "success" of Chinese, European, and Middle Eastern civilisations throughout history being dependant on this, the greater difficulty of achieving basic subsistence leading to a broader variety of solutions and increased innovation... (Davies in "Europe- A History" I believe)
Yes "monopolist real" works well also because it links the economic monopoly to that which this stage has on the imagination... and yes, free-market economists use theory which corresponds little to practice to underpin their efforts to further extend these monopolies... (the endless galling US-laissez faire arguments for reduced regulation in developing nations obviously springs to mind, whilst they themselves maintain protectionist domestic policies on agriculture for example...)