"Cocaine Rap" Sasha Frere-Jones hilarious delusion

[the undisputed truth]

OK but what gets me about hiphop is that after 25 yrs of evolution (i feel it plateaued in the mid 90s BTW) people still think it is revolutionary/relevent. I also think the cyclic nature is actually recycling to an ignorant generation and that in these times the current big thing is comparable only to the immediately preceding big thing...

...hence the fascination with shifting units and making the numbers

imagine after 25 yrs of rock n roll people still feeling the same about rockabilly wannabees still cloning/clowning bill haley and the comets

How do you think clipse compare to wutang in full early 90's effect or pharrell's *ahem* songwriting ability and production skills compared to Leon Sylvers in his prime ???

...that fact that the best thing of note by all accounts this year in hiphop is an homage to coke dealing shits me greatly

 

[gumdrops]

Is anyone else as amused as I am by that New Yorker article all the indiepress is basing their reviews of Hell Hath No Fury on?

http://www.newyorker.com/printables/critics/061225crmu_music

Does Frere-Jones know how ridiculously white it is of him not to have noticed that cocaine/crack dealing has been very near the center of hip-hop idioms and the problematic nature of life in the ghetto since, well, forever?

jones has been writing about hip hop for years. im pretty sure hes noticed. is this like some 'im not as white as you' one-upmanship?

Can he name me a hip-hop album that doesn't in some way deal with how devastating cocaine, heroin, and other drug dealing and use is to the economy of the ghetto? Is he seriously trying to say that talking about these things is tantamount to endorsing them unequivocally? I don't think he is, but what exactly makes one album "cocaine rap" while another that deals openly with cocaine use and distribution isn't? He doesn't make this clear. Does he realize that selling drugs is significant to the Clipse because it was part of how they "came up"--that it opened doors for them business-wise that have been essential to promoting their careers/music? ("Keys Open Doors")

but the thing with the clipse is this sense of amorality. yeah youve quoted lines here and there and thats great, the clipse do occasionally do something other than simply offer us a glimpse of this fantastically opulent coke utopia but youre ignoring the vastness of all the other things they talk about in relation to the drug trade which are basically the lavish after effects of doing drug deals.

If I hear one more white person call that album a "coke fantasy", I'm going to personally write to them and offer to take them to the projects and show them how very real and tangible coke, crack and drug dealing are.")

but it IS a coke fantasy. the clipse, rick ross, jeezy et al, they let you live vicariously through their drug tales. i shdnt really put them all together as they all deal with the subject differently but your thing is that you seem to be saying ALL hip hop artists that cover coke/drug dealing ALL deal with it in this panoramic way, when unfortunately they dont. not every rapper talking about serving fiends on the corner is covering crack selling with poignancy or a three-dimensional worldview. im not saying they should have to either, but you seem to be saying that by default, this is what they are all doing, when IMO that isnt the case. fine, we get some lines here and there scattered about jeezy and clipses albums that hint at some remorse, but we also get a hell of a lot more lines about all the greatness that selling drugs can lead to. and all too often theres not much mention of the downside. which is fine, it can be powerful stuff, i dont expect them to deal with every single aspect, i doubt all dealers have a conscience, but im not going to pretend that these guys do, just to fit the liberal viewpoint of rappers as 'reporting street reality' and all that. that has a place but is that all they can do, report on it, dont they have any other thoughts on it? i was reading some article the other day about poetry and how its meant to make the unreal seem real and convincing - despite the emphasis on 'realness' that there is in hip hop, that applys to rappers too.

These hip-hop artists aren't bragging that they sell drugs--

some of them really are. clipse dont exactly sound unhappy with gleefully delivered lines like FUCK ZOMBA I SELL NOSE CANDY WILLY WONKA!

they're bragging that DESPITE having to sell drugs, they've come up. They're saying "look at what my people have to do to get successful, and no one cares, you just keep buying the coke, buying the albums." Yeah, it's cynical, but wouldn't you be jaded?--

well of course. but that seems slightly lame to me. and very convenient. rappers need to stop copping pleas. if you want to rap about dealing drugs and selling coke, then fine, do it. dont blame it on everything else. take some responsibility. the problem with all the ex-dealer rappers is that fine, they came up, they got out the projects, they made some money and did well for themselves, but now what are they doing? just rapping about drugs all day in the most nihilistic, debased, emotionally numb way possible. in a way, maybe this is more realistic, theyre dead in the head coke sellers with no emotions, and when you have these almost dead sounding beats like on jeezys first album, it makes for a pretty sobering, depressing listen. but then the lyrics are basically how hes the biggest dope dealer in town, not how he regrets that life. i mean, the guy still says hes a hustler, a trapper, a dope boy, not a rapper. the message is pretty clear.

The next best thing is how so many of these same indiepress writers who hate The Clipse for writing "cocaine fantasies" then endorse Ghostface, whose album is called "Fischscale" after the flakey textured coke that is cut straight off the kilo, and includes songs that are entirely about cocaine ("A kilo is a thousand grams/easy to remember...")

i dont get this at all. the same indie rock press and rock journos (even the observer and guardian critics loved fishscale this year somehow) who love and go on about ghostface love clipse too. i dont think ive seen anyone hating on the clipse and loving ghostface. its pretty much equal. clipse are prob the most loved hip hop group out there right across the board. pitchfork didnt list their mixtape in their end of year album list for nothing.

Another great point people try to make against the Clipse is that their slang is opaque. It's not. I can't think of a single line in it that I can't make sense of using current slang. The terms they use for drugs and units of drugs are common in New York and I'm assuming most of the eastern seaboard. If it is opaque to you, it is because you are not part of a certain circle. It is not a fault of the album's.

thats what makes them so good - the fact their language and wordplay is so dense and takes a while to really unravel. they also have a lot of interesting arcane references which are quite brilliant. theyre remarkably uncliched.

 

[Precious Cuts]

there are two ways to slice it: either the clipse are wildly exaggerating, and cocaine isn't really a problem and people don't really do it and they're just parodying a tendency in hip hop to get carried away with posturing, or they're not wildly exaggerating and these things do happen and they are a problem, regardless of whether the clipse still use some classic over-the-top boasting techniques.

or theres a third option that you're forgetting - there is a real coke industry, there are many rappers who talk about it in a real way and the Clipse are no longer part of those ranks.

I've already said it here before, but I think that their version of gangster rap is pretty much fantasy rap. I also think that there is still a lot of street rap out there that isn't. The version of street life they depict is just all around unrealistic and doesn't make much sense to me. Their posturing strikes me as overly thought out and doesn't seem to come from the heart. I think "crackpacker rap" or "grand theft auto rap" would be a more apt term to describe their style. I don't know if they are fake gangsters, but thats besides the point, the problem is that they come across sounding contrived, and I think the silent majority out there recognized it in the music. Their album failed to sell because it didn't get the cosign from the hood - because, in all honesty, it sounds corny, contrived and dated. Its the oldest rule of marketting street rap, they flunked it with this album and paid the price. If it were fresh and innovative and spoke to people in a real way like their first album, it would be selling. there are lots of people like me who were fiending for a follow up to Lord Willin'.

 

[mistersloane]

...do you think the clipse give 2 shits about that either ???

Clipse have been pretty vocal in interviews about wanting to be the greatest MCs and bring out an album which is relevant for now, I really resent that you would think otherwise. Say that about maybe less intelligent MCs but them? Don't think you're right there.

 

[Precious Cuts]

but the thing with the clipse is this sense of amorality. yeah youve quoted lines here and there and thats great, the clipse do occasionally do something other than simply offer us a glimpse of this fantastically opulent coke utopia but youre ignoring the vastness of all the other things they talk about in relation to the drug trade which are basically the lavish after effects of doing drug deals.



but it IS a coke fantasy. the clipse, rick ross, jeezy et al, they let you live vicariously through their drug tales. i shdnt really put them all together as they all deal with the subject differently but your thing is that you seem to be saying ALL hip hop artists that cover coke/drug dealing ALL deal with it in this panoramic way, when unfortunately they dont. not every rapper talking about serving fiends on the corner is covering crack selling with poignancy or a three-dimensional worldview. im not saying they should have to either, but you seem to be saying that by default, this is what they are all doing, when IMO that isnt the case. fine, we get some lines here and there scattered about jeezy and clipses albums that hint at some remorse, but we also get a hell of a lot more lines about all the greatness that selling drugs can lead to. and all too often theres not much mention of the downside. which is fine, it can be powerful stuff, i dont expect them to deal with every single aspect, i doubt all dealers have a conscience, but im not going to pretend that these guys do, just to fit the liberal viewpoint of rappers as 'reporting street reality' and all that. that has a place but is that all they can do, report on it, dont they have any other thoughts on it? i was reading some article the other day about poetry and how its meant to make the unreal seem real and convincing - despite the emphasis on 'realness' that there is in hip hop, that applys to rappers too.



some of them really are. clipse dont exactly sound unhappy with gleefully delivered lines like FUCK ZOMBA I SELL NOSE CANDY WILLY WONKA!



well of course. but that seems slightly lame to me. and very convenient. rappers need to stop copping pleas. if you want to rap about dealing drugs and selling coke, then fine, do it. dont blame it on everything else. take some responsibility. the problem with all the ex-dealer rappers is that fine, they came up, they got out the projects, they made some money and did well for themselves, but now what are they doing? just rapping about drugs all day in the most nihilistic, debased, emotionally numb way possible. in a way, maybe this is more realistic, theyre dead in the head coke sellers with no emotions, and when you have these almost dead sounding beats like on jeezys first album, it makes for a pretty sobering, depressing listen. but then the lyrics are basically how hes the biggest dope dealer in town, not how he regrets that life. i mean, the guy still says hes a hustler, a trapper, a dope boy, not a rapper. the message is pretty clear.

I think the problems that you note ("just rapping about drugs all day in the most nihilistic, debased, emotionally numb way possible.") are epitomized by the clipse and that they are not more realistic because of it. They are selling a fake nasty story to those who don't know better and are looking for a fantasy that is as nasty and nihilistic as you can get. grand theft auto rap.

Jeezy is not immoral in the same way that the clipse present themselves. There is a well-worn code of morality amongst hustlers and its called the g-code. Jeezy reps it, scarface reps it.. pretty much anyone who is real and gets respect reps it. The Clipse don't. They rep being a sociopath.

 

[mistersloane]

There is a well-worn code of morality amongst hustlers and its called the g-code. Jeezy reps it, scarface reps it.. pretty much anyone who is real and gets respect reps it. The Clipse don't. They rep being a sociopath.

G-Code : "We don't talk to police, we don't make a peace bond, we don't trust in the judicial system, we shoot guns. We rely on the streets, we do battle in the hood, I was born in the G Code, embedded in my blood."

In what way do Clipse not rep this?

 

[Precious Cuts]

G-Code : "We don't talk to police, we don't make a peace bond, we don't trust in the judicial system, we shoot guns. We rely on the streets, we do battle in the hood, I was born in the G Code, embedded in my blood."

In what way do Clipse not rep this?

I think that line is pretty threadbare as a comprehensive rundown of what the g-code entails. There is, however problematic it may be, an idea of being somewhat socially responsable, or if you are a rapper, at least giving an honest depiction of the struggle (as someone mentioned up the thread) and the Clipse completely disregard it. They revel in the aspects of the hustle that anyone with a heart hopes to forget. They rap about doing horrible predatory things to people with the detachment of someone playing a video game. I can't respect that. look at their names "malice" and "pusha-t" they are literally about fucking over and exploiting people. that's not what the g-code is about, and behind their grotesque facade I don't think the Clipse are about that either. I certainly hope that they aren't as base and reptilian as they pretend to be.

 

[nomadologist]

Of course they're making silly imagery, they're exaggerating certain things, but I can't think of a single hip-hop artist that I like who doesn't. Cocaine is a reality. People do it. People like it. What are they supposed to do, write an album apologizing about everything they've ever done wrong? What merit would that have artistically? I find it much more interesting they develop a mythos around themselves--all great artists do that.

Since when are pop artists supposed to be the morality police? By your standards, Precious Cuts, most things should be taken off the radio for being sexist or amoral. I think DIPSET sell "grand theft auto" rap, not the Clipse. I still like Dipset, but I understand any complaints people have about their lyrics.

I sold coke myself for years. I find some of their sense of humor about it great. Yeah, you do stop having pity for coke users. The way they fiend, the horrible things some of them do just to get another fucking 20 bag. Yeah, there are awful things in the world. I love it when they say "be Sosa NOT Tony." "Nightmares" is a song all about the comedown, feeling guilty, feeling like everything's wrong, the feeling you get when the coke high wears off. Maybe if you'd experienced some of these things, they'd seem less unambiguously "glamorous" to you.

If the Clipse are guilty of these "amorality" charges, so are 99% of hip-hop artists, including B.I.G., (he rapped about selling CRACK and killing hos) Snoop, Dre, Method Man, whoever you can name, not to mention most pop artists in general.

 

[nomadologist]

Their album failed to sell because it didn't get the cosign from the hood - because, in all honesty, it sounds corny, contrived and dated.

You have GOT to be kidding me. "Cosign from the hood." THAT sounds corny. NO ONE who lives in the hood would EVER SAY THAT.

 

[nomadologist]

but the thing with the clipse is this sense of amorality. yeah youve quoted lines here and there and thats great, the clipse do occasionally do something other than simply offer us a glimpse of this fantastically opulent coke utopia but youre ignoring the vastness of all the other things they talk about in relation to the drug trade which are basically the lavish after effects of doing drug deals.

name me ONE HIP HOP ARTIST who doesn't talk about selling cocaine. please. i guarantee you that artist is someone i have NO INTEREST in listening to sonically

 

[nomadologist]

Gumdrop--have you been to Miami? There IS a fantastic coke utopia there, entire gated communities full of mansions and luxury cars built on cocaine. There are people who live this utopia.

I guess because I'm Sicilian I understand these things as a reality a little better than some of you.

 

[nomadologist]

. They rap about doing horrible predatory things to people with the detachment of someone playing a video game. I can't respect that.

Examples? Are you talking about Chinese New Year, where they go to collect on debts? They don't ACTUALLY kill anyone, they say "give us our money, we have guns." Jesus, no other hip-hop artists have ever talked about using guns and violence to get their way. Never.

"praying to god the gun don't pop and hit the child" that's a good line from Nightmares

 

[captain easychord]

You have GOT to be kidding me. "Cosign from the hood." THAT sounds corny. NO ONE who lives in the hood would EVER SAY THAT.

really?

http://2for10.stores.yahoo.net/grav102.html

http://2for10.stores.yahoo.net/dlevil114.html

 

[nomadologist]

so? jadakiss has it on an album cover, that means it's not corny? since when. speaking of bad rappers, jadakiss was just arraigned on gun possesion charges. so his "cosign" is like, bad, or amoral, or something.

in the bushwick projects, i constantly hear peope listening to music that backpackers say is "bad" or that "no one in the hood cosigns" or whatever. rick ross "hustlin" was the biggest song EVER in the projects, and on the southside. i couldn't walk three feet without hearing that bumping from a car, or someone's window.

i don't know who imagines they're doing this "cosigning", but in NYC, it's a completely different group than these backpackers imagine it is. talk about an imaginary reality--where does this group of "cosigners" exist? the cocaine utopia is a much more tangible reality.

people in the hood don't really buy all that many albums, anyway, their purchases wouldn't be the most reflected in album sales. the demographic that buys the most hip-hop albums are suburban white boys.

 

[Precious Cuts]

You have GOT to be kidding me. "Cosign from the hood." THAT sounds corny. NO ONE who lives in the hood would EVER SAY THAT.

umm its a well worn expression that has been said over a thousand million times in hip hop. it may sound a bit outdated and quaint now, but plenty of hood dudes have said it over the years. you are shooting from the hip and displaying your own ignorance here. ask someone like DJ Drama if it is a valid thing to say. like I said it is the golden rule of gangster rap.. I'm not the one who made the phrase so it's not even really my problem if someone who lives in williamsburg doesnt think it is hood enough..

 

[mistersloane]

I think that line is pretty threadbare as a comprehensive rundown of what the g-code entails.

Ironic in that it comes from Scarface, one of the rappers you state as living by it.

There is, however problematic it may be, an idea of being somewhat socially responsable, or if you are a rapper, at least giving an honest depiction of the struggle (as someone mentioned up the thread) and the Clipse completely disregard it.

I agree with the fact that there is a problem, but I ( and Nas, see XXL this month ) think the problem is more to do with the idea of reality as supposedly being depicted ( the 'keeping it real' sentiment ) and that of an artist/poet who is allowed to say whatever the fuck they like. Just cos you never lived it doesn't mean you can't write a poem about it, this 'keeping it real' stuff is utter bullshit. Are we all doomed just to repeat our own narratives and not create any others? And who first came up with 'keeping it real' anyway? It's such a fucking lie.

They revel in the aspects of the hustle that anyone with a heart hopes to forget. They rap about doing horrible predatory things to people with the detachment of someone playing a video game. I can't respect that. look at their names "malice" and "pusha-t" they are literally about fucking over and exploiting people. that's not what the g-code is about, and behind their grotesque facade I don't think the Clipse are about that either. I certainly hope that they aren't as base and reptilian as they pretend to be.

I think you're fundamentally misreading their work, I hear and read disgust (*yeeuch*) into alot of their work. And boasting of MC prowess while using metaphors of drug dealing to do it. Oh, and irony, which I think is maybe the fundament of what hiphop and this 'keeping it real' bullshit is missing at the moment, which perhaps would be a better reason why the album flopped. Although I wouldn't see it's stellar reviews as being failure at all, and again all this artistic merit being based on record sales is another sorry fucking reflection of the American state of mind at the moment. You've all been fooled.

 

[nomadologist]

the point, easychord, is that speaking for the entire "ghetto", which didn't "cosign" something because it didn't sell, is completely whack. if the album didn't sell or go platinum, it's because white people didn't buy it.

 

[mistersloane]

really?

http://2for10.stores.yahoo.net/grav102.html

http://2for10.stores.yahoo.net/dlevil114.html

hahahaha *featuring SexyBack by Justin Timberlake*

Hood! Stand up! Whut!

 

[nomadologist]

Ironic in that it comes from Scarface, one of the rappers you state as living by it.



I agree with the fact that there is a problem, but I ( and Nas, see XXL this month ) think the problem is more to do with the idea of reality as supposedly being depicted ( the 'keeping it real' sentiment ) and that of an artist/poet who is allowed to say whatever the fuck they like. Just cos you never lived it doesn't mean you can't write a poem about it, this 'keeping it real' stuff is utter bullshit. Are we all doomed just to repeat our own narratives and not create any others? And who first came up with 'keeping it real' anyway? It's such a fucking lie.



I think you're fundamentally misreading their work, I hear and read disgust (*yeeuch*) into alot of their work. And boasting of MC prowess while using metaphors of drug dealing to do it. Oh, and irony, which I think is maybe the fundament of what hiphop and this 'keeping it real' bullshit is missing at the moment, which perhaps would be a better reason why the album flopped. Although I wouldn't see it's stellar reviews as being failure at all, and again all this artistic merit being based on record sales is another sorry fucking reflection of the American state of mind at the moment. You've all been fooled.

Bravo. This is the thing--the myth the Clipse are creating is like a metanarrative about hip-hop and the entire pose the rapper takes. I hear far more disgust in the Clipse's lyrics for the hustler's lifestyle than I do in any other hip hop I can think of--if anyone can think of some that is more conflicted about hustlin or more vocal about feeling guilty about selling coke or hating the coke trade, please share.

 

[nomadologist]

umm its a well worn expression that has been said over a thousand million times in hip hop. it may sound a bit outdated and quaint now, but plenty of hood dudes have said it over the years. you are shooting from the hip and displaying your own ignorance here. ask someone like DJ Drama if it is a valid thing to say. like I said it is the golden rule of gangster rap.. I'm not the one who made the phrase so it's not even really my problem if someone who lives in williamsburg doesnt think it is hood enough..

if the problem with the clipse is that they're "grand theft auto" hip hop, then why are you even trying to hold them up to the "keep it real standard"? that makes no sense.

do you speak for every hood everywhere, now, precious cuts? which "hood" is it that did or didnt' "cosign" (yeah, a VERY dated expression--in fact, it seems kind of like a joke on the jadakiss cover, like here is the street gansta stereotype, like twelve men in a smoke filled room, "cosigning" for the hood) the clipse's street authenticity.

this is the problem with backpackers--THEY are the ones who *really believe* in what it is to "be hood." which is a construct, a myth, a lie. there's no univocal line the "hood" takes on anything. there are many different hoods, many different ways of life, many different kinds of people in hoods.

i don't live in williamsburg. i live in bushwick.