bruno

est malade
1, At the high level, a department that has a majority female faculty will probably have different interests and pursue different general areas within their field as compared to a majority male faculty. Thus they will produce different results.
produce results in different areas yes, not different results.

2. The tricky part of science (especially social science) is generalizing from results. There are plenty of rules about how to prove statistical significance for an experiment, but interpreting these results is not at all an exact science ;). Thus cultural background (gender, race or otherwise) definitely comes into play.
this could be said about any other area, why focus on gender in this case?

also there's the whole question of WHY certain scientific area's attract more males or females...
what about it?

i'm sorry if i sound obtuse but while it's conceivable that a woman could work out a different strategy to solve a problem than a man or a hermaphrodite the basic building blocks are the same for all, and the end result is not open to poetic interpretation or sensibility. and sorry for the bread and pie example, there could well be a difference there.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Exactly. On the subject of 'hard' and 'soft' sciences, I think there are two important points. Firstly, in biology and and human sciences, there are obviously aspects of some kinds of research, to do with sex and gender, that can have political interpretations in as far as they relate to the positions of men and women in society. This simply does not apply to the 'hard' (i.e. physical) sciences - how can you possibly have a 'feminist' (or 'masculinist') interpretation of research on molecular dynamics, or galaxy formation, or particle interactions?

Secondly, on the point about men dominating physics, engineering etc. and women dominating biology, psychology etc. - has anyone considered the possibility that, on average, men's and women's brains work a bit differently? Or am I going to be hanged from the rafters for voicing such a glaringly politically incorrect opinion?

Finally, to turtle's point about cultural bias: in the hard sciences, which is the kind of science I know, the doctrine of the scientific method reigns supreme, in which results are obtained in ways that are as objective as can possibly be. It doesn't matter what a person's background is when they do a piece of research; either they do it rigorously and properly, in which case their research is worth something, or they don't, in which case it isn't. That's all there is to it - in a sense, science is the most fair and culturally neutral academic discipline you can practise (with the possible exception of mathematics, of course). And if you want to say that merely using the scientific method is a form of cultural bias - well, if you're not using it, you're not doing science.
 
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turtles

in the sea
produce results in different areas yes, not different results.
But then these areas gain momentum, become dominant, become orthodoxy and results from other areas that might have challenged them are ignored or never even found because no one is looking. Sure, in some end-time, total knowledge, scenario when all scientific results have been found and understood, all the results would be equally valid. But given that scientific knowledge is continually developing, the interests of researchers has a great effect on our current state of knowledge.

this could be said about any other area, why focus on gender in this case?
I agree. I chose gender just because that was largely what was being discussed up-thread.

also there's the whole question of WHY certain scientific area's attract more males or females...
what about it?

Well, is it the scientific area itself (like, just the way physics works) that attracts more men than women, or is it the way that the area is actually studied and the general discourse around it that attracts more men than women? Because if it's the latter, shouldn't we try and do something about it? And if it's the former, it's very much an interesting question of why that is too. (btw, i think it's mostly the latter...)

i'm sorry if i sound obtuse but while it's conceivable that a woman could work out a different strategy to solve a problem than a man or a hermaphrodite the basic building blocks are the same for all, and the end result is not open to poetic interpretation or sensibility.
I'm saying that EVERYONE works out a slightly different strategy for solving scientific problems (specificaly, generalizing from scientific results), and that though there is a lot of overlap (as you say, the building blocks are the same) there is wide room for differences, and some of those differences will be effects of different cultural backgrounds. There are constantly huge fights in scientific fields about the validity of the conclusions drawn from experiments. That's basically what the whole peer-review process is for, to find a general consensus on what constitutes valid reasoning. (Peer-review!!!! there's another huge area where cultural differences, gender or otherwise, play a big role).

[this is why you should be able to fork threads into different streams ;)]
 

turtles

in the sea
Finally, to turtle's point about cultural bias: in the hard sciences, which is the kind of science I know, the doctrine of the scientific method reigns supreme, in which results are obtained in ways that are as objective as can possibly be. It doesn't matter what a person's background is when they do a piece of research; either they do it rigorously and properly, in which case their research is worth something, or they don't, in which case it isn't. That's all there is to it - in a sense, science is the most fair and culturally neutral academic discipline you can practise (with the possible exception of mathematics, of course). And if you want to say that merely using the scientific method is a form of cultural bias - well, if you're not using it, you're not doing science.

I am by no means saying that the scientific method is invalid, and that all results obtain from it are useless. I fully agree that scientific research is the best method we've found of discovering facts about the universe in as objective a way as posible. I believe in thermodynamics, quantum mechanics and evolution :D. That said, I think it's silly to pretend that there aren't humans doing this research, and that the individual differences of these humans (differences which are both biological and cultural), have NO effect on the results that they get. I mean, the whole scientific method is an attempt to minimize the effects of subjectivity, but it certainly doesn't claim to remove them outright.

Agreed that physics has less wiggle room than psych, but there's still wiggle room, there's still real people doing the experiments, publishing them, controlling who gets hired, who get tenure, etc etc. Gender, and other similar issues, will have an effect on these things, that is almost beyond obvious. The debate is on how much of an effect.
 

turtles

in the sea
Basically, every step you move away from the actual physical measurement of some property of the world, the more you add in cultural biases, until by the time you get to scientific knowledge as viewed by the general populace, they are absolutely inextricably intertwined.

[okay! i'll stop now...]
 

dHarry

Well-known member
I'm just saying that I've heard enough examples of the kind of things postmodern thinkers sometimes come out with to justify being antagonistic towards it.
That Dawkins piece on Sokal and Bricmont's Fashionable Nonsense (FN) you linked to was ludicrous - "But don't the postmodernists claim only to be 'playing games'? Isn't the whole point of their philosophy that anything goes, there is no absolute truth, anything written has the same status as anything else, and no point of view is privileged? " - at the risk of sounding like S&B, where does he get this nonsense from? - but FN demands a more rigorous critique: here's an interesting one by a fairly disinterested (scientific?!) mathematician Michael Harris who admits not having read Deleuze et al, but on the evidence condemns Sokal and Bricmont's sleight of hand in their typical "look at this postmodern drivel" stance on Deleuze:

Let me say at the outset that I haven’t read Deleuze closely and don’t pretend to understand the overall purpose of his books — a necessary starting point, one would think, for understanding the importance of the details. But at least some of the passages quoted in FN are not meaningless abuses of science.
[...]
But one doesn’t have to be a philosopher to spot an inexcusable omission in FN. The first quotation on p. 163 of FN contains an ellipsis. If you go to the source you will find that Deleuze writes “…in the old interpretations of differential calculus, called barbarian or prescientific, there is a treasure that needs to be released from its infinitesimal straitjacket.” He then refers to three texts from the 18th and early 19th centuries — one by Hoëné Wronski, whose name should be familiar to readers — which draw philosophical conclusions from calculus, and the ellipsis concludes “Many philosophical riches, here, should not be sacrified to modern scientific technique: a Leibniz, a Kant, a Plato of the calculus.”25 This omission is already enough to disqualify Sokal and Bricmont as intellectual historians. I interpret this to mean that the philosophical questions raised by these texts are of interest independently of the subsequent development of the calculus. If this interpretation is correct, the comment in FN that "It is hard to see why a philosopher would choose to ignore [a rigorous exposition of differential calculus, based on limits rather than infinitesimals]," 26 is completely irrelevant. Besides, Deleuze makes it clear on p. 229 that he knows the modern definition of limits
(emphasis mine)

- and he goes on to note other holes in their arguments, further exonerate Deleuze's "abuse" of science, and point out other flaws in their discussion of anthropology and psychonalysis.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
agree with the Turtles/Cat/Lenin.

the proportion of males vs females in breadmaking compared to the proportion in piemaking, how could this have anything to do with the quality of bread and pies...?

well, not saying which sex would make "better" bread and pies, but there surely would be, potentially big, differences in the product: for instance men and women would make different decisions concerning blend of dough; glaze or no glaze; what kind of crust? shape? bite sized cute little pieces or big lump of carbs? light and fluffy or dense like a rock? choice of sasame, olives, other decorations; baked to golden brown or light hues; how it is presented, packaged, served; etc, etc, etc.

i know my girlfriend would bake a totally different pie than i would. if, that is, i knew how to bake pies :eek: (but ofcourse, the fact that i don't know is indicative of the gender differences we are addressing)
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Just go to your library's website, choose databases, search for JSTOR, give your net id when asked, open JSTOR, search within JSTOR for the article. Unless NYU doesn't participate in JSTOR, which I find very difficult to imagine. It's an excellent service, moreso for older articles, MUSE is better for recent ones. Depends on your field of study, of course.

EDIT: i only intended this for nomadologist. i have no idea how other people's database services work.

I was at work, so I was on Rockefeller University's website--I wouldn't be surprised if they only pay for scientific journals/articles. I was also just at my work comp, not at the library, though I can go there tomorrow if you think I could use JSTOR there.

In fact, if there's anything good I can get for free using JSTOR, if anyone has requests, let me know and I'll get it next week before I leave science development for European government subsidized contemporary art fundraising.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Exactly. On the subject of 'hard' and 'soft' sciences, I think there are two important points. Firstly, in biology and and human sciences, there are obviously aspects of some kinds of research, to do with sex and gender, that can have political interpretations in as far as they relate to the positions of men and women in society. This simply does not apply to the 'hard' (i.e. physical) sciences - how can you possibly have a 'feminist' (or 'masculinist') interpretation of research on molecular dynamics, or galaxy formation, or particle interactions?

Secondly, on the point about men dominating physics, engineering etc. and women dominating biology, psychology etc. - has anyone considered the possibility that, on average, men's and women's brains work a bit differently? Or am I going to be hanged from the rafters for voicing such a glaringly politically incorrect opinion?

Finally, to turtle's point about cultural bias: in the hard sciences, which is the kind of science I know, the doctrine of the scientific method reigns supreme, in which results are obtained in ways that are as objective as can possibly be. It doesn't matter what a person's background is when they do a piece of research; either they do it rigorously and properly, in which case their research is worth something, or they don't, in which case it isn't. That's all there is to it - in a sense, science is the most fair and culturally neutral academic discipline you can practise (with the possible exception of mathematics, of course). And if you want to say that merely using the scientific method is a form of cultural bias - well, if you're not using it, you're not doing science.

First: no one said anything about "feminist" or "masculinist" readings of science, least of all Irigaray. Irigaray is, ultimately, always going to be providing a feminist reading in her work, because that is her field, she was one of the first academic feminists, and on top of that, it will be a psychoanalytical reading. Maybe you should READ some psychoanalysis, some Freud and Lacan, and eventually Irigaray before you try to ASSUME you know what their jargon means. Being someone who HAS read it, I can tell you that you're way off in your interpretation of what you're projecting onto them--most of the things you seem to think they believe are just not the case.

That would be the scientific approach, wouldn't it? Go look for the FACTS before you form judgments of a set of opinions or (in this case) a highly abstract, often metaphorical interpretation of phenomena that are clearly not subject to the sorts of measurements that math or science uses to assess the world? I'm very sure that neither Lacan nor Irigaray would deny that they are espousing UNSCIENTIFIC viewpoints that are highly abstract and not easily made analogous to "commonsensical" approaches to human interaction and the human psyche.

Second: Irigaray's point was not about men dominating the sciences, exactly. She is referring much more abstractly to an idea that (originated in the work of men, mind you) that all language and public discourse is inflected with the privilege of those who built Western culture (while women were excluded from participation in culture and politics), a sort of privilege that was solely imparted to males only because they were male. It is a theoretical principle, somewhat (I'm using an analogy here) like those very elegant principles in physics that describe a very distinct but abstract set of phenomena, that later gets called "phallogocentrism" by Derrida and others.

In order to understand, it is NECESSARY to read her words directly. Philosophy is a discipline where the devil's in the details; it is comprised of the exact words of its texts. In the same way you can't meet science with philosophical objections alone, you can't meet philosophy with scientific objections and ignore criticizing it on its own terms, by using philosophy itself.

I will find your criticism of Irigaray or "post-modernism" or any other theory/philosophy valid when you come back to me having read it, and understanding it, think PAST or THROUGH it and come up with objections that deal directly with the actual content of the texts.

P.S. I work at an institution that has 8 Nobel laureates on its faculty. These people more than most understand how important it is to bear in mind--and in fact, stress this to laypeople constantly who are looking for biological reasons to go back to old gender stereotypes and norms--that what is remarkable is not that male and female brains are very different in many ways; what is remarkable is how SIMILAR men in women are in aptitude, ability, and performance in every field and by every standard of measurement at our disposal men and women are DESPITE those biological "brain" differences.
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"Why is it being judged as if it were a scientific statement? It isn't - it's a proposition, a provocation. The clue that this is not hard science is the word 'perhaps'.... "

Well, that's what I was asking, are they judging it in the wrong way? However, to answer your question, "why judge it as if it were a scientific statement?" my gut feeling is that it seems to be written as if it is a scientific statement, as if to apply some kind of respectability. Maybe you're right it is simply a "provocation" in which case your defence of it seems to be "has no meaning, it's just annoying" which I guess kind of puts us in agreement.

"What does 'meaningless from a scientific point of view' mean?"

I think you know full well what they mean but let's pretend that you don't for a minute. I'm guessing that Dawkins would say that certain scientfic words have a precisely defined meaning, you can put them together with other words in different combinations and they relate to each other depending on how they are combined according to other precisely defined rules. Unfortunately for Baudrillard he seems to be putting these words together almost at random and with no regard for these rules and thus the combination does not convey any information to the person reading it.

I don't really understand how Dawkins is making a circular argument, in fact I would go further than that, he's not. At some level he is indeed appealing to self-evidence but I'm sure that, if he wanted to, he could go through that passage bit by bit and say, for example, why acceleration can't put an end to linearity (or better still why those words can't be combined in that way) and so on but is there really any need to do that?

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm genuinely curious as to whether I should read, say, Baudrillard but things such as that Dawkins piece seem fairly dammning and make me think that I shouldn't invest time in someone who appears to be an idiot, or worse, a charlatan. That's why I'm asking someone to mount a decent defence of those charges - I'm afraid I don't think yours was it.
 
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dHarry

Well-known member
See my post above for mathematician Michael Harris' exoneration of Deleuze's alleged "abuse of science" and condemnation of significant portions of Sokal and Bricmont's Fashionable Nonsense (which Dawkins was praising). Unfortunately Harris doesn't deal with S&B's discussion of Baudrillard.

I have to admit, while admiring Baudrillard's writing, he does seem to get out of his depth in that chaos/acceleration/history quotation... but taken out of context it's still all a bit childish, let's have a giggle at these French charlatans.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"See my post above for mathematician Michael Harris' exoneration of Deleuze's alleged "abuse of science" "
Yes, good point, it's clear that S&B are far from disinterested and are so eager to catch Deleuze et al out that they bend (well, break) their own rules.

I have to admit, while admiring Baudrillard's writing, he does seem to get out of his depth in that chaos/acceleration/history quotation... but taken out of context it's still all a bit childish, let's have a giggle at these French charlatans.
It may be childish but I think it's important because it really does make him look like a Charlatan and that kind of thing ought to be pointed out.
Perhaps you're right, it's perfectly possible that on his own ground he writes sense but this doesn't inspire me to go check him out.
I dunno, I find this debate interesting because, while it's something I know nothing about, my girlfriend is doing a philosophy phd at the moment and I often hear her saying that a lot of this stuff is meaningless. When she says that I take the other side, purely because I can't believe that people would invest so much in it if it was just gibberish but I'm always disappointed when people try to demonstrate that it's not.
 

dHarry

Well-known member
But just because a sociologist-philosopher-theorist gets a little out of her/his depth occasionally doesn't make their entire oeuvre gibberish. It's not science!
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"But just because a sociologist-philosopher-theorist gets a little out of her/his depth occasionally doesn't make their entire oeuvre gibberish"
That's what I was asking in my first question

Is he being mis-represented? Maybe it doesn't matter if it's "meaningless from a scientific point of view", maybe something was lost in translation or maybe he is simply wrong because he was outside his field and that doesn't detract from his other work
I think you give a reasonable answer, he's not stupid but sometimes he says some stupid things. What I find disappointing is people trying to tie themselves up in knots to prove that he doesn't - "what does meaningless mean?" "why should it have meaning?" "he was just being provocative" etc
 

dHarry

Well-known member
"why should it have meaning?" "he was just being provocative" etc
This is sliding back into Dawkins territory - no-one here said "why should it have meaning? " - rather the questions asked were of the order - "how is it meaningless? back up your claim with a demonstration, not just assertion." and "he was being provocative" (not "just provocative" meaning "only", as if that was all that was involved).
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
"This is sliding back into Dawkins territory - no-one here said "why shouild it have meaning? " - rather the questions asked were of the order - "how is it meaningless? back up your claim with a demonstration, not just assertion." and "he was being provocative" (not "just provocative" meaning only, as if that was all that was involved)."
I was being somewhat glib there, the point is I think you gave the best answer - he wasn't being dishonest he was simply confused and out of his field, it doesn't necessarily carry through to all his work. I'm not that inspired though.
 

vimothy

yurp
The 'if no-one saw it, it didn't happen' position is not one entertained by Baudrillard. He argued that, increasingly, things only happen BECAUSE they are, or will be, seen. The media gaze instigates pseudo-events, 'happenings' which would never take place unless they were filmed or reported. Who can seriously gainsay this, in an age of ubiquitous PR and spin - activities, which, as we well know, dominate military logic as much as anything else? Terrorism, too, is unthinkable outside the media responses it seeks to evoke.

Baudrillard's prescience is astonshing. For instance, he understood, way back in the 70s, the implications that 'reality TV' would have for media and entertainment...

I've always found Baudrillard to be very interesting, if occasionally beyond this particular bear of little brain ...
 

k-punk

Spectres of Mark
Well, that's what I was asking, are they judging it in the wrong way? However, to answer your question, "why judge it as if it were a scientific statement?" my gut feeling

gut feeling?

is that it seems to be written as if it is a scientific statement, as if to apply some kind of respectability. Maybe you're right it is simply a "provocation" in which case your defence of it seems to be "has no meaning, it's just annoying" which I guess kind of puts us in agreement.

Saying it's a provocation doesn't, evidently, mean that it's 'meaningless, or annoying' - I meant it's a provocation to thought, to think differently...

I think you know full well what they mean but let's pretend that you don't for a minute. I'm guessing that Dawkins would say that certain scientfic words have a precisely defined meaning, you can put them together with other words in different combinations and they relate to each other depending on how they are combined according to other precisely defined rules. Unfortunately for Baudrillard he seems to be putting these words together almost at random and with no regard for these rules and thus the combination does not convey any information to the person reading it.

What I meant was, he needs to say why it is meaningless from a scientific point of view, not simply that assert that it is meaningless. How, precisely, is Baudrillard using these terms in a misleading or inaccurate way? If you presented a laymen with legitimate Chaos theory from a reputable scientist, it would 'not convey any information to the person reading it.' I want to hear from the people here who are claiming that this proves Baudrillard is a charlatan, in detail, why and how he is using those terms wrongly.

I don't really understand how Dawkins is making a circular argument, in fact I would go further than that, he's not.

Well, his arguments are of the structure 'this is clearly irrelevant and inappropriate, because this sort of thing should not be done'... and why shouldn't this sort of be done? Well, because it is irrelevant and inappropriate, silly!

At some level he is indeed appealing to self-evidence

well, yeah...

but I'm sure that, if he wanted to,

why are you sure, because you have FAITH?

he could go through that passage bit by bit and say, for example, why acceleration can't put an end to linearity (or better still why those words can't be combined in that way) and so on but is there really any need to do that?

So now it's another fallacy, irrelevant appeal to authority: Dawkins must be right, because he knows what he's talking about. We don't have to see any argument or evidence, because we know he could provide it if required. Why couldn't the same be said of Baudrillard: obviously he knows what he's talking about, and therefore there is no real need for him to explain himself to those who do not understand?

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm genuinely curious as to whether I should read, say, Baudrillard but things such as that Dawkins piece seem fairly dammning and make me think that I shouldn't invest time in someone who appears to be an idiot, or worse, a charlatan. That's why I'm asking someone to mount a decent defence of those charges - I'm afraid I don't think yours was it.

If you want to know why you should read Baudrillard, that's a different question. Approaching it from this angle, though, is like saying 'I've heard you're a wife-beater - tell me why I should like you...'

And quite honestly, if you don't think that appeal to self-evidence, bullying use of authority and assertion without evidence don't weaken someone's case, then there won't be any repudiation of Dawkins that's going to convince you. I have to say, I agree with dHarry - the harrumphing kneejerk commonsense of Dawkins' piece is far more ludicrous and embarrassing than anything Baudrillard ever wrote.
 

tate

Brown Sugar
[hip-hop] sums up everything I'm talking about... globally dominant for twenty years, but now sclerotic, exhausted, static, showing no signs of going away...
I find it kind of hilarious to call hip-hop "sclerotic" and when you're seriously looking to thrice-warmed over "metal" genre for the last remnant of what's interesting in music. Especially when the "metal" sounds as much like shoegaze indie rock as it does hard rock.
Nomadologist, I agree with you entirely.
 
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