mistersloane
heavy heavy monster sound
I'm super digging all this Asian bredding of the carbohydrates :
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/k1PAVe4dJY0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Pointless But It Does My Head In
I'm super digging all this Asian bredding of the carbohydrates :
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/k1PAVe4dJY0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
The big bad Byron burger-bastard backlash brouhaha.
Now I've got total sympathy with poor people doing whatever they have to do to make a living (assuming we're not talking about kidnapping or armed robbery). And if it's true that Byron has been culpably negligent in checking employees' credentials then clearly the blame lies mostly on them. But I'm still a bit perturbed by how readily people call for a boycott of the chain. I mean, think for a moment about the likely consequences of a widespread boycott: profits fall, branches close, perhaps hundreds of working-class people lose their jobs, and the directors bravely take it on the chin by awarding themselves a measly 100k bonus this year instead of the usual 250k. But hey, a few thousand middle-class liberals felt good about themselves, which is the main thing.
Now I've got total sympathy with poor people doing whatever they have to do to make a living (assuming we're not talking about kidnapping or armed robbery). And if it's true that Byron has been culpably negligent in checking employees' credentials then clearly the blame lies mostly on them. But I'm still a bit perturbed by how readily people call for a boycott of the chain. I mean, think for a moment about the likely consequences of a widespread boycott: profits fall, branches close, perhaps hundreds of working-class people lose their jobs, and the directors bravely take it on the chin by awarding themselves a measly 100k bonus this year instead of the usual 250k. But hey, a few thousand middle-class liberals felt good about themselves, which is the main thing.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Not to reprise the Facebook debate we had on this topic, but I'm far more inclined to consider the argument above than the one you put forward on Fb. It's a good point for discussion - the practical problems and risks of boycotting companies that people depend on for their livelihoods. Lots of questions of course - would a temporary boycott cause such hardships; would a boycott accompanied with demands (that Byron could meet - e.g. to speak out against the appallingness of the law as it stands*, and to give their ex-employees as much assistance as possible) be more useful than a blanket boycott with no dialogue with the firm?
And if a boycott can't work well, then what is the best alternative course of action? And how can companies (or more to the point, the people who manage companies) in general be forced to live up to their social/human responsibilities?
(I can't be bothered rising to the cliche of 'what-all-those-activist-people-are-like'. Suffice to say it's an exhausted, world-weary one.)
*Even Boris Johnson has advocated an amnesty on migrants without documentation (albeit after 12 years, if memory serves). This is hardly radical stuff, not that that's the main point here.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Hey, I'm not having a go at middle-class liberals. I include myself in both categories. But it's a fair description of exactly the people who are mobilizing this attempted boycott.
But yeah, I'm uneasy about boycotts because they're such a blunt instrument and, as I said, will tend overwhelmingly to hurt shop-floor staff the most. If they affect senior management at all, they'll be "punished" by receiving a smaller bonus than they otherwise would have done. Even in the extreme rare cases where a company decides an example has to be made and fires one of them, chances are they'll walk into a similar job elsewhere straight away.
Moreover I'm just sick and tired of these hashtag protests intended to boycott this company or shame that individual, started and propagated by people who live for the little dopamine reward-circuit kick of Doing A Good Thing and rarely stop for ten seconds to consider the actual effects their actions might have on actual people. And people need to realize that there is a limit to how much good you can do just by choosing where to spend your money. The idea that we can usher in utopia by not buying a certain product is not much less naive than thinking we do the same by buying stuff.
"If not boycotts, then what?" is a good question. I don't really know, to be honest. Concerted political campaigning can and does achieve good things - think about the expired but still perfectly edible food stocked by companies like Pret and Tesco (!) that's now being given to homeless people instead of being needlessly destroyed.
(To be clear: I am in no way knocking people who want to do good and have some positive effect on the world; clearly that's better than just being another sleepwalker who never gives a moment's thought to the economic system that produces the food, goods and entertainment they consume on a daily basis. But being angry is not the same as being right, and even if you're both angry and right, that does not guarantee that any action you take as a result of your righteous anger is going to hurt the people you're angry at or help the people you're angry on behalf of.)
But yeah, I'm uneasy about boycotts because they're such a blunt instrument and, as I said, will tend overwhelmingly to hurt shop-floor staff the most. If they affect senior management at all, they'll be "punished" by receiving a smaller bonus than they otherwise would have done. Even in the extreme rare cases where a company decides an example has to be made and fires one of them, chances are they'll walk into a similar job elsewhere straight away.
Moreover I'm just sick and tired of these hashtag protests intended to boycott this company or shame that individual, started and propagated by people who live for the little dopamine reward-circuit kick of Doing A Good Thing and rarely stop for ten seconds to consider the actual effects their actions might have on actual people. And people need to realize that there is a limit to how much good you can do just by choosing where to spend your money. The idea that we can usher in utopia by not buying a certain product is not much less naive than thinking we do the same by buying stuff.
"If not boycotts, then what?" is a good question. I don't really know, to be honest. Concerted political campaigning can and does achieve good things - think about the expired but still perfectly edible food stocked by companies like Pret and Tesco (!) that's now being given to homeless people instead of being needlessly destroyed.
(To be clear: I am in no way knocking people who want to do good and have some positive effect on the world; clearly that's better than just being another sleepwalker who never gives a moment's thought to the economic system that produces the food, goods and entertainment they consume on a daily basis. But being angry is not the same as being right, and even if you're both angry and right, that does not guarantee that any action you take as a result of your righteous anger is going to hurt the people you're angry at or help the people you're angry on behalf of.)
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Argh, I wrote a reply to this but accidentally deleted it...
1/ In brief, agree that protest needs to be considered as carefully as anything else.
2/ How do you know who is organising the boycott (genuine question)? If you're right about that, it has no bearing on the fact that a huge amount of activism is organised by people who do not fit that stereotype at all.
3/ Not sure about the idea that targeted spending can't help. Tbh don't know what I think on that, would need to know more https://www.theguardian.com/vital-signs/2015/jan/06/boycotts-shopping-protests-activists-consumers
4/ What you say about Pret and Tesco - certainly a very good thing, but doesn't cost the companies anything really/doesn't require any real effort. Harder forms of protest are arguably needed to make companies do something which will force them to change in any real way.
5/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...lease-cockroaches-and-locusts-at-burger-chain this wasn't on the list of things i expected.
1/ In brief, agree that protest needs to be considered as carefully as anything else.
2/ How do you know who is organising the boycott (genuine question)? If you're right about that, it has no bearing on the fact that a huge amount of activism is organised by people who do not fit that stereotype at all.
3/ Not sure about the idea that targeted spending can't help. Tbh don't know what I think on that, would need to know more https://www.theguardian.com/vital-signs/2015/jan/06/boycotts-shopping-protests-activists-consumers
4/ What you say about Pret and Tesco - certainly a very good thing, but doesn't cost the companies anything really/doesn't require any real effort. Harder forms of protest are arguably needed to make companies do something which will force them to change in any real way.
5/ https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...lease-cockroaches-and-locusts-at-burger-chain this wasn't on the list of things i expected.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Byron is a fairly upmarket chain, isn't it? I mean, I can't recall ever seting foot in one, but it looks vaguely hipsterish and I understand it's not cheap. So it's probably fair to say its clientele is mostly middle-class. You can't meaningfully boycott a company if you don't consume its products/services in the first place, can you?
I don't see that anyone is "organizing" a boycott in the formal sense, but I do see plenty of people posting #boycottbyron all over Facebook and Twitter.
But more broadly I don't really understand why this issue is irking you so much.
I don't see that anyone is "organizing" a boycott in the formal sense, but I do see plenty of people posting #boycottbyron all over Facebook and Twitter.
But more broadly I don't really understand why this issue is irking you so much.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm sure the minimum-wage cleaning staff who had to deal with this were just thrilled to bits.
OK, perhaps that's unnecessarily cynical. Is there good reason to think that this sort of low-level disruptive protest is effective in getting companies to change their behaviour? Again, that's an honest question - maybe it is. But it's noticeable that McDonald's hasn't closed down, doubled the salaries of its shop-floor staff or ditched the Big Mac in favour of a Fairtrade vegan beanburger as a result of having its Oxford Street outlets smashed up every May Day for years, because the inconvenience and expense incurred is infinitesimal next to their profits. The main results are that some lads with lots of testosterone have a great time and local glaziers' firms do a roaring trade.
luka
Well-known member
More the media attention it brings to the case than the inconvenience caused by the cockroachs themselves I would have thought. That's how these things usually work. Greenpeace do a lot of stunts for the same reason.
What would your strategy for shaming/Punishing Byron be, if you were campaigning against them rather than for them?
What would your strategy for shaming/Punishing Byron be, if you were campaigning against them rather than for them?
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
The issue about reflex identification of those who participate in boycotts with a particular stereotype? Because it's bizarre and doesn't reflect where the call for change is coming from (or at least, the differing places it is coming from). Why would you want to suggest that activism/boycotts etc is mainly a middle class liberal pastime? Genuinely don't get it. PS for info, London Black Revs self-define as a working class group, afaik, and they're calling for a boycott as well as the cockroach tactic.
You can call for a boycott if you don't consume a particular product. Definitely not uncommon.
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baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
It's notoriously difficult to get huge companies to change their behaviour. Even governments find that. So no protest will cause a company like McDonalds to change overnight, but it's possible that over years something will happen.
Obviously political change on a wider level is what's really needed, to improve the position of workers vis-a-vis those they work for. And while I think protest should be a part of this, then other tactics are urgently needed too.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, I wasn't thinking of these guys so much as the #boycottbyron hashtags and "never eating there again!" comments spontaneously popping up in FB feeds of friends and friends-of-friends - although of course there's probably some selection bias going on there too.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
I dunno. I'm not saying people should do nothing, just questioning what the best strategy is. You could well be right that negative publicity is enough in itself.
Ha, you're going to have to bait me a bit smarter than that, I'm afraid.
Leo
Well-known member
luka, not sure if that was in jest or not but on the chance it's real...maybe it's time for a change of job/career/significant other, some new stimulus and all that. i'm a set-in-my-ways type who has pretty much always avoided change, but a few times i've had no choice in the matter and it ended up working out for the better in the long run.
my "pointless..." comment for the day: i have loads of old 12" house and techno vinyl with $5.99 (for domestic) and $9.99 (for import) price stickers on them. i was just looking at a weekly new releases email and almost all of the 12" vinyl is at least $14.99...holy crap, how do people afford to buy records anymore? who's going to take a chance on some obscure single when it's that price? maybe most dance music fans are buying digital at this point, so there's only a small universe of obsessives who spend cash for vinyl.
my "pointless..." comment for the day: i have loads of old 12" house and techno vinyl with $5.99 (for domestic) and $9.99 (for import) price stickers on them. i was just looking at a weekly new releases email and almost all of the 12" vinyl is at least $14.99...holy crap, how do people afford to buy records anymore? who's going to take a chance on some obscure single when it's that price? maybe most dance music fans are buying digital at this point, so there's only a small universe of obsessives who spend cash for vinyl.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
New cars with those LED headlights that are cuntishly bright even when they're not on full beam.
Bluish-tinged headlights that always make you think the filth are on your tail when they're behind you at night.
And a non-headlight-related one: the word 'par', meaning 'part', as in par-boiled, par-baked. It just sounds stupid and lazy, like you can't be bothered to say the whole word. Like 'bae' - is that meant to be 'short for' babe?
Cashme ousside, howbowdah.
Bluish-tinged headlights that always make you think the filth are on your tail when they're behind you at night.
And a non-headlight-related one: the word 'par', meaning 'part', as in par-boiled, par-baked. It just sounds stupid and lazy, like you can't be bothered to say the whole word. Like 'bae' - is that meant to be 'short for' babe?
Cashme ousside, howbowdah.