The God / Dawkins Delusion

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Out of interest, have you got any theories as to why?

Hmm... well, it just seemed ludicrous that out of all cultures in all of human history, all of which had differing accounts of the divine origins of the universe, none of which made any logical sense, that only one got it right- and this was supposed to just happen to be the one I lived in. All the rest were infidels or something.

When I was a kid I wanted to live in China or somewhere far away, though, I hated the U.S. Perhaps I was just too aware of other cultures, that was the problem.

I was skeptical, suspicious, and contemptuous of most everything in general from pretty much day one iirc.
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
Nomad was already on Beyond Good And Evil while you and I were getting to grips with The Very Hungry Caterpillar. ;)

I would prefer The Very Hungry Caterpillar to the God of Christianity actually. On the seventh day, the Caterpillar ate a leaf, and God just sat on His ass.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
c) thoughts of being able to bring about a successful atheistic society through coercive means are, in view of the recent historical record, foolish

...or incredibly violent and destructive. John Gray is very good on this sort of thing - see his Black Mass in particular. There's a couple of wild mis-representations that Padraig has made of what I said that I'd like to address, but we'll see if I can be bothered.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Hmm... well, it just seemed ludicrous that out of all cultures in all of human history, all of which had differing accounts of the divine origins of the universe, none of which made any logical sense, that only one got it right- and this was supposed to just happen to be the one I lived in. All the rest were infidels or something.

Yeah, exactly - if the options were a single Religion(tm) or atheism, you might naively assume the Religionites were onto something - but when you consider that even the biggest religion accounts for under half the total believers on Earth, and most of them consider most of their co-religionists to be heretics or splitters, it just seems entirely arbitrary to belong to one religion or another, depending on what country or community you were born in. And when people change religion, it's hard to see it as anything other than 'going shopping for belief'.

After all, most theists around the world don't just 'believe in' some abstract and generic god; they worship Christ, Allah, Brahma and so on. You pays your money and you takes your choice...
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I would prefer The Very Hungry Caterpillar to the God of Christianity actually. On the seventh day, the Caterpillar ate a leaf, and God just sat on His ass.

But the caterpillar's pupation and emergence as a butterfly is surely an allegory for the Resurrection?!?!
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
There's a couple of wild mis-representations that Padraig has made of what I said that I'd like to address, but we'll see if I can be bothered.

please, by all means elucidate how I've -wildly- misrepresented you.

oh & citing John Gray does you no favors in the self-representation department.
 
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padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
Many atheists' belief in moral absolutes (see upthread)

wait, wait, where upthread? where were was anyone expressing a belief in moral absolutes? the argument was that moral absolutes, including religious ones, aren't actually absolute to begin with and further are generally a mostly bad idea.

I would also propose that a state of advanced distributive justice is a consequence of the balance of power (stable societies benefit from virtuous feedback) rather than especial rational maturity.

I don't see how you're sorting out cause & effect there. (for a bunch of these broad strokes you're painting, really, but that one in particular)
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
n children's references to a disembodied figure who has agency in their world

God, children wish they had a disembodied agency in their world. That's where it comes from. There will always be a 'need' or 'desire' for 'god' until we have eradicated the 'need' and 'desire' for parents.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
God, children wish they had a disembodied agency in their world. That's where it comes from. There will always be a 'need' or 'desire' for 'god' until we have eradicated the 'need' and 'desire' for parents.

Yeah, I think that's exactly where a lot of the impetus for religion comes from.

But I also think that Biscuits is being overly literal about that part of the speech where Thompson talks about children inventing god. What he's really saying is that the normal, unsophisticated human mind will tend to create agents to rationalize unexplained phenomena- and you see this very often in children, who make up imaginary friends, or characters who make the snow fall or the wind blow. Ask them about how a machine works and a lot of small children will assume there are little men in there, etc. These are perfectly "intuitive" cognitions at the point in development, before people have the cognitive apparatus necessary to understand really complex systems (and concepts like equilibrium, disequilibrium, which don't require agents).
 

Dr Awesome

Techsteppin'
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
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Bible verses are so much more impressive in German, they're like lines from Kafka...
 

paolo

Mechanical phantoms
Yeah, exactly - if the options were a single Religion(tm) or atheism, you might naively assume the Religionites were onto something - but when you consider that even the biggest religion accounts for under half the total believers on Earth, and most of them consider most of their co-religionists to be heretics or splitters, it just seems entirely arbitrary to belong to one religion or another, depending on what country or community you were born in. And when people change religion, it's hard to see it as anything other than 'going shopping for belief'.

After all, most theists around the world don't just 'believe in' some abstract and generic god; they worship Christ, Allah, Brahma and so on. You pays your money and you takes your choice...

You could become a Baha'i

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá'í_Faith
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Dreadfully long winded and full of subversive zionism?

Kafka was not longwinded. His prose sparkles, it's very crisp and clear and concise. (He also uses the simple past tense a lot, which gives makes it seem sort of archaic and authoritative. Sacred texty...) Maybe you're thinking of Thomas Mann.

Nor was he a Zionist- where are you getting that bit of info? Or are you talking about the Bible? Not sure...
 
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michael

Bring out the vacuum
Fwiw, my parents tried to make me believe there was a god when I was a kid, but it didn't work. So I think there are some children who don't spontaneously create the god concept. I think Thompson was just remarking on a general tendency of young, discontinuous minds.

Yeah I went to church as good as every Sunday til I was maybe 16, but I have no memory of believing in any god.

I do remember praying as a child (to avoid something I was afraid of happening coming true) but I don't remember that as much different from any of the other (god-free) vaguely-OCD rituals I had as a kid.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure all scientific studies on memory suggest there's a good chance I'm just inventing shit that's consistent with my current self-perception. Awesome. :)
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Yeah I went to church as good as every Sunday til I was maybe 16, but I have no memory of believing in any god.

I do remember praying as a child (to avoid something I was afraid of happening coming true) but I don't remember that as much different from any of the other (god-free) vaguely-OCD rituals I had as a kid.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure all scientific studies on memory suggest there's a good chance I'm just inventing shit that's consistent with my current self-perception. Awesome. :)

I remember almost fainting at times from being so lightheaded from standing through the 45 minutes of singing (which they called "worship" and which seemed like creepily sexual in nature to me...) In the summer it would be very hot and stuffy with only fans and no air conditioning. I distinctly remember one day asking someone how we could all come from two people, since the only way to propagate the species would have been through incest, and genetically offspring would have a very high probability of being inviable. When they started spinning some weird justification based on an extra-textual eisegesis of Genesis wherein Adam and Eve had "pure" DNA, I was like... "good lord get me out of here!" That counts as a prayer, maybe.

They were some nice people, I just couldn't understand how the fuck grown adults could spout such creepy, creepy nonsense.
 
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Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I distinctly remember one day asking someone how we could all come from two people, since the only way to propagate the species would have been through incest, and genetically offspring would have a very high probability of being inviable. When they started spinning some weird justification based on an extra-textual eisegesis of Genesis wherein Adam and Eve had "pure" DNA, I was like... "good lord get me out of here!" That counts as a prayer, maybe.

The answer I heard is that Cain fucked off and found some 'other people' somewhere out there (creatures of Satan? Thetans?) - not sure if it's in the (or any) Bible.

But yeah, listening to fundies trying to use science to 'explain' or 'prove' mythology is always good for a laugh.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
The answer I heard is that Cain fucked off and found some 'other people' somewhere out there (creatures of Satan? Thetans) - not sure if it's in the (or any) Bible.

But yeah, listening to fundies trying to use science to 'explain' or 'prove' mythology is always good for a laugh.

Is that the "giants used to roam the earth and they 'went into' the daughters of Adam" part?

I also quite like when you raise objections to the notion that religion makes people moral, or that morality and ethics are founded in a belief in god, or when you point out that religion has been responsible for many kinds/instances of historical oppression, and religionists say "but there are other causes of bad behavior, not just religion!" As if you ever said there weren't... as if by criticizing one social institution for having ill social effects, you are saying that it is the only social institution with ill social effects...

It's really difficult to discuss things with people whose minds make such huge leaps from A to B.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
There's an in-depth theological debate going on behind me between a Sikh, a Muslim and a Christian. More interesting conversation to overhear than yer average office banter, anyway!
 
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