Bus drivers are cunts

[Mr. Tea]

Uh, Mr. Tea you are the one who has mentioned 'Big Brother', the government and 'sinister implications'.

Seems more like you are one of those guys who likes to imagine they see 'those guys' everywhere.

But you said cheaper fares are a "reward" for providing "personal information" - why mention this if you think it's being used for anything other than monitoring how much use each section of the route gets? Any case, the information they get from my Oyster isn't personal because I bought it for cash without supplying any personal information at all.

As for targetted ads from supermarkets, I get some bumf through the post from Tesco every now and then, which goes straight in the recyc. Beyond the waste of paper I can't say it bothers me too much.

 

[grizzleb]

Nah, most Oyster cards are registered. I think you can still get one 'anonymously', and presumably you could make stuff up on the form, but you do need to register it if you want to put a season ticket on it.

Individually identifiable information about journeys is kept for eight weeks and then it's unlinked. Supposedly it's kept for the purposes of dealing with customer queries which is fair enough. It's not difficult at all though, that's what they do. And it is kept 'centrally'.

You're not really getting what I'm saying. Yes, you may have a card which has your name on it, but in that context you're just a name in a big pile of names. You're not 'James Duffy' anymore than you are 'Marcus Yeboah'. Nobody cares about that information, it's only relevant in the context of public transport administration, which is about as banal a concern as you could possibly have.

As for them being kept 'centrally', well you're missing my point. Each seperate data point is kept in piles, yes, but collectively the information that exists 'out there' about you is in no way centralised, infact it's totally discrete without really the potentiality for them ever to become linked, beyond the advent of some miraculous archiving computers. And even then...
For example, the information about your oyster which you've registered is probably your address. The 'personalised information' that you got on the number 21 bus at half four most afrternoons will never meet with that personalised information your dentist has, that you have 2 back teeth missing. Heaven forfend if such a thing where to occur though.

 

[massrock]

But you said cheaper fares are a "reward" for providing "personal information" - why mention this if you think it's being used for anything other than monitoring how much use each section of the route gets?

Yes, I joked about the difference in fares being a 'reward' for providing personal information. You'll notice I go on in that post to say something else, "Taking a slightly more generous view..." No? Here's an emoticon to make it more obvious this time.

The humour is somewhat black though because while I'm not 'worried' about it, and I don't think it is 'sinister', the collection by organisations of amounts of personally identifiable information pertaining to behaviour is not something to be accepted entirely without question in my view. Certainly not on the grounds that 'your' movements may already be tracked by a number of other means.

 

[massrock]

You're not really getting what I'm saying.

Oh really.

Yes, you may have a card which has your name on it, but in that context you're just a name in a big pile of names. You're not 'James Duffy' anymore than you are 'Marcus Yeboah'. Nobody cares about that information, it's only relevant in the context of public transport administration, which is about as banal a concern as you could possibly have.

The point is that the information is there. The details of the last eight week's journeys are logged alongside your name and address and are readily searchable. Of course nobody 'cares' about most of it (what do you imagine - a secret policeman monitoring every journey in realtime?), until they do.

As for them being kept 'centrally', well you're missing my point. Each seperate data point is kept in piles, yes, but collectively the information that exists 'out there' about you is in no way centralised, infact it's totally discrete without really the potentiality for them ever to become linked, beyond the advent of some miraculous archiving computers.

Er, so what? You're the only one who mentioned databases being linked up. Oh I see Mr. Tea did too, OK.

And even then...
For example, the information about your oyster which you've registered is probably your address. The 'personalised information' that you got on the number 21 bus at half four most afrternoons will never meet with that personalised information your dentist has, that you have 2 back teeth missing. Heaven forfend if such a thing where to occur though.

Are you drunk?

 

[massrock]

Grizzleb, if the Oyster data is so useless why do the police and intelligence services use it?

 

[massrock]

why mention this if you think it's being used for anything other than monitoring how much use each section of the route gets?

Actually I think it's mostly kept for the purposes of solving problems with cards / lost cards etc. Information used to monitor service usage wouldn't need to be personally identifiable as far as I can see.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Police and intelligence services use all kinds of information, it's how they get anything done at all. If information from an Oyster card is used to convict a criminal or exonerate an innocent person, that's good, isn't it?

 

[massrock]

Police and intelligence services use all kinds of information, it's how they get anything done at all.

You don't say. Do go on...

If information from an Oyster card is used to convict a criminal or exonerate an innocent person, that's good, isn't it?

Well perhaps, who said otherwise?

Let's see, why did I mention the police? Oh yes, it was in reply to grizzleb who has been going on at length about how the information is of no use as far as being personally identifiable. So I asked if this is the case why would the police find it of use?

 

[Mr. Tea]

If the police or CPS can request a certain bit of information held on some obscure database in order to investigate a case, that's not quite the same thing as that information going straight to a central government computer where it's stored alongside your name, vital stats, fingerprint and favourite flavour of Pringles, is it?

 

[grizzleb]

If the police or CPS can request a certain bit of information held on some obscure database in order to investigate a case, that's not quite the same thing as that information going straight to a central government computer where it's stored alongside your name, vital stats, fingerprint and favourite flavour of Pringles, is it?

This is basically what I've been saying in a more long-winded way.

 

[grizzleb]

At any rate, at least when M15 decide to frame me for a crime I didn't commit I've got the option of paying by money if I want to escape by public transport...

 

[BareBones]

i won't have a bad word said against supermarket loyalty cards. my girlfriend and me get to go to out for a regular slap-up meal at loch fyne on the cheap because of the tesco clubcard/resturant vouchers thing.

(and they say romance is dead)

 

[massrock]

If the police or CPS can request a certain bit of information held on some obscure database in order to investigate a case, that's not quite the same thing as that information going straight to a central government computer where it's stored alongside your name, vital stats, fingerprint and favourite flavour of Pringles, is it?

It's you and grizzleb that keep going on about central computers and linked databases, not me.

And you know, it was a joke about TFL (that shadowy alphabet agency) rewarding customers for their personal info. I don't actually think it's worth 80p a pop to them. Associated savings might be though.

Even so, I wouldn't describe the Oyster network as 'obscure' exactly. And in the case of registered cards, eight weeks' of journey records are kept alongside names and addresses (@g). That's just the nature of the data there. What it means (in case you don't know anything about databases) is that with access it's a simple matter to see where a particular card has been and who it is registered to, or conversely to find out if a known person has a card registered to them and where it's been.

Interesting that even mentioning this, and mainly in jest at that, should prompt such a response though.

 

[massrock]

Each seperate data point is kept in piles, yes, but collectively the information that exists 'out there' about you is in no way centralised, infact it's totally discrete without really the potentiality for them ever to become linked, beyond the advent of some miraculous archiving computers. And even then...

As I said, this wasn't a concern I was referring to exactly, but actually I don't think this is true. Of course information is shared and there is absolutely the potential for databases to become linked. It's really not that big of a deal in technical terms.

Again it's not that I'm 'worried' about it, I didn't intend to get into such a discussion at all, but you two are trotting out some odd viewpoints if you ask me. It's like you're almost militantly against even the suggestion that there might be a potential privacy issue with large scale data collection on individuals.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think it's just that you mentioned it in a slightly ominous way, as if there were More Going On Than Meets The Eye. And I've heard people talk about it before as if it were a major civil-liberties issue, which I think is a bit daft when weighed up against ominpresent CCTV, the obsession wth 'background checks', detention without trial and all the other lovely authoritarian measures introduced by the last government.

 

[gumdrops]

this isnt really to do with bus drivers. more people that ride the buses. or the tube. why do people insist on spreading themselves out beyond their seat space? i now feel i have to make sure that when i sit down on a train i determine that i will not be budged in case the person sitting next to me thinks its their right to take up all the armrest or encroach on my space. and it is my space. i sat there first. so there.

 

[Mr. Tea]

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook - seemed appropriate to this thread:

We got on the 26 at Hackney Wick and the driver turned off the engine and announced that the people at the top at the front had to pay or we weren't going anywhere. Cue lots of shouting and complaining and entreaties for the dodgers to come down and sort it out. Eventually a girl came down and explained to the driver that she had in fact paid, and showed her ticket receipt. Driver wouldn't accept it, saying it took her too long to come down. So she freaked.

After many minutes of the girl screaming "I'VE GOT A FUCKING RECEIPT" and a bloke backing her up, the driver emerged and started on about how he needed to make a point. At this point people started to figure that the point was for him to drive the bus. They started remonstrating with the driver, who was by now a driver in name only and seemed like he was quite literally immovable.

Quite a few people had got off by now, seeing no end to it, and I should have done the same but I went and joined in trying to get the driver to do some actual driving and asking what the problem was now things had been resolved. I wasn't impolite or sweary but I was exasperated. The driver told us all to get off after this, but allowed two people to stay on because they had been plaintively asking people not to be howwid to him. Eventually the police turned up (four or five of em) and ordered us all off the bus, saying "He doesn't have to take you". The driver at this point was whining "I HAVE BEEN HARASSED AND ABUSED BY THE ENTIRE BUS". I pointed out that I had paid and hadn't bloody done anything (and was sober) but there is no use arguing with the cops so it was more of a parting grumble as I left.

A French girl who looked exactly like a young Kate Bush was very sang-froid about it and tried to get everyone to stop shouting but in vain. She wore an expression of such weary contempt for humanity she must have been from Paris.

So yeah, that was amusing. I've never seen an entire bus be accused of harassment before. It was bullshit, though - it was a stupid situation but it wasn't *ugly* or threatening at all. People were just very narked and tired.

 

[e/y]

pretty cunty behaviour from the driver.

the bit about the French girl is wonderful.

 

[blacktulip]

collectively the information that exists 'out there' about you is in no way centralised, infact it's totally discrete without really the potentiality for them ever to become linked, beyond the advent of some miraculous archiving computers. And even then...
For example, the information about your oyster which you've registered is probably your address. The 'personalised information' that you got on the number 21 bus at half four most afrternoons will never meet with that personalised information your dentist has, that you have 2 back teeth missing. Heaven forfend if such a thing where to occur though.

I have done some work with major telecommunication network providers and I must say that your perspective on this strikes me as a bit naive. Things are much further along than you seem to believe.

Buying your Oyster for cash is a wise move, that much I can say.

 

[luka]

im not really into it when people hint at knowledge of dark and mysterious things without actually saying anything. its like saying oh, i know somone who fancies you, im not telling you who it is though... welll why bring it up in the first place then? pointless....