Drum/rhythm knowledge rolling thread
- Thread starter baboon2004
- Start date
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Revive!
Not that I've got too much to add myself (I'm still working out all the possible mutations of a basic 2-step rhythm
), but I'm sure there must be mouintains of new thoughts on the subject, what with soca-funky house, the new waves of dubste and all...
Not that I've got too much to add myself (I'm still working out all the possible mutations of a basic 2-step rhythm
), but I'm sure there must be mouintains of new thoughts on the subject, what with soca-funky house, the new waves of dubste and all...ah yes, what a good topic. I think this is my favorite thing to talk/think about/spend time doing.
not for everyone, but i like layering 3-4 different grooves/time-sigs/rid's over each other for that loose, seasick vibe.
does anyone else find if your programming really polyrid music that you need to slow it down significantly for it to sound right, but it still sounds faster than the actual bpm?
not for everyone, but i like layering 3-4 different grooves/time-sigs/rid's over each other for that loose, seasick vibe.
does anyone else find if your programming really polyrid music that you need to slow it down significantly for it to sound right, but it still sounds faster than the actual bpm?
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
nerd alert
same here
nice thread, just had a read and thought i might as well add in my own 2 cents albeit 2 years late. scuse me if i'm stating the obvious
*more often than not this is a side stick rather than a woodblock and is used a lot in 2step. the snare is played with the stick lying flat across the head and the shoulder hitting the metal rim of the drum. this produces that dense click which can really cut through a mix. woodblocks tend to have a more obvious 'note' to them and can also be put to good use.
check out erykah badu's 'on & on' and 'rimshot' from baduizm, ?uestlove's drumming on d'angelo's voodoo and almost every bossa nova record [with drums in it] ever for examples of sidesticks in action.
funnily enough i was always taught that a rimshot is what you call it when you hit the snare on the head, but off centre, closer to the rim, giving you that ringing sound thats so popular in funk and other musics requiring a more raucous snare sound. years after learning to play i started to notice more and more people calling what i call a side stick a rimshot... i'm still not sure who's right on that one.
you can definitely use compression make a sidestick more attack heavy. try pulling the threshold down low and the ratio up high. then mess around with very short attack and release settings until it clicks nicely... also make sure you turn the compressors output or the snare channels fader down as this kind of compression can result in some pretty harsh shit for your ears. sometimes it's nicer to do this on a buss so you can blend the compressed, extra clicky one with the natural sample.
the spl transient designer was a popular piece of gear with dnb producers for emphasizing attack and or deemphasizing release. there's quite a few plugins that do the same job.
i'm going to repeat a few things already said in the thread now;
cutting the tails off of your drums is standard. it just brings them as forward in the mix as possible and gives them that irresistible snappiness that kicks you in the ear hole and thus makes you want to dance.
applying swing is also defacto. i really miss having that simple swing bar in logic where you could tell it what sub division [ie 8ths or 16ths] to swing and then just slide the bar backwards or forwards until it sounded right. in ableton 8 its gone all fancy and i dont have the patience to work it out. i'm sure its good but why can't they have a simplified version too? for now i'm sticking with fxpansion's guru because it has a swing bar ala logic and some other really nice features that make beat programming pretty painless.
re: triplets, they can sound great but they're still aligned to a grid. better to swing 'em a bit just to loosen up. you can reach a triplet feel if you turn your swung 16ths up high enough anyway.
another thing to think about with swing is that if your beat has say a swing of 66% then it more often than not pays to have that same 66% on any other rhythmic elements in your track. just makes it flow that bit smoother. obviously mess around with other swing settings on other tracks too. you might come up with stuff that sounds more interesting, this is just an idea based on common practice.
*re: the 1 being implied on another beat until it kicks in and youre like 'whaa?'... really good to read it put into much better words than i could manage.
one of my favorite tracks of all time uses this trick. i've always loved this kind of rhythmic manipulation, a track i'm working on right now uses it. the bass part is polyrhythmic and until the kick starts you're totally expecting it an 8th note later. i'm currently trying to work out a nice way to bring it in so it isn't quite so jarring. the best i've come up with is a subtle reversed cymbal to add a little light distraction. one track that gets me every time with displacing the 1 is fuck the pain away by peaches.
one more thing for this post... if you're an ableton user, set off one of your clips, and then while it's playing mess around with the start point for the clip. that's the little arrow pointing to the right underneath the left loop marker (if the loop marker starts at the beginning of the bar). you can find some really interesting rhythmic variations this way that you might not have thought about otherwise. whats more, you can record your live jamming in midi or audio into the arrange view. i haven't really seen this trick mentioned much in production forums but damn does it make shit sound good. afaik this is possible in other progs like logic but it's just not quite as flexible. say you have a loop that repeats itself, while the tune is playing, manually drag and drop the loop so that the 1 of the loop starts somewhere other than a '1' on the arrange page
same here
nice thread, just had a read and thought i might as well add in my own 2 cents albeit 2 years late. scuse me if i'm stating the obvious
*more often than not this is a side stick rather than a woodblock and is used a lot in 2step. the snare is played with the stick lying flat across the head and the shoulder hitting the metal rim of the drum. this produces that dense click which can really cut through a mix. woodblocks tend to have a more obvious 'note' to them and can also be put to good use.
check out erykah badu's 'on & on' and 'rimshot' from baduizm, ?uestlove's drumming on d'angelo's voodoo and almost every bossa nova record [with drums in it] ever for examples of sidesticks in action.
funnily enough i was always taught that a rimshot is what you call it when you hit the snare on the head, but off centre, closer to the rim, giving you that ringing sound thats so popular in funk and other musics requiring a more raucous snare sound. years after learning to play i started to notice more and more people calling what i call a side stick a rimshot... i'm still not sure who's right on that one.
you can definitely use compression make a sidestick more attack heavy. try pulling the threshold down low and the ratio up high. then mess around with very short attack and release settings until it clicks nicely... also make sure you turn the compressors output or the snare channels fader down as this kind of compression can result in some pretty harsh shit for your ears. sometimes it's nicer to do this on a buss so you can blend the compressed, extra clicky one with the natural sample.
the spl transient designer was a popular piece of gear with dnb producers for emphasizing attack and or deemphasizing release. there's quite a few plugins that do the same job.
i'm going to repeat a few things already said in the thread now;
cutting the tails off of your drums is standard. it just brings them as forward in the mix as possible and gives them that irresistible snappiness that kicks you in the ear hole and thus makes you want to dance.
applying swing is also defacto. i really miss having that simple swing bar in logic where you could tell it what sub division [ie 8ths or 16ths] to swing and then just slide the bar backwards or forwards until it sounded right. in ableton 8 its gone all fancy and i dont have the patience to work it out. i'm sure its good but why can't they have a simplified version too? for now i'm sticking with fxpansion's guru because it has a swing bar ala logic and some other really nice features that make beat programming pretty painless.
re: triplets, they can sound great but they're still aligned to a grid. better to swing 'em a bit just to loosen up. you can reach a triplet feel if you turn your swung 16ths up high enough anyway.
another thing to think about with swing is that if your beat has say a swing of 66% then it more often than not pays to have that same 66% on any other rhythmic elements in your track. just makes it flow that bit smoother. obviously mess around with other swing settings on other tracks too. you might come up with stuff that sounds more interesting, this is just an idea based on common practice.
*re: the 1 being implied on another beat until it kicks in and youre like 'whaa?'... really good to read it put into much better words than i could manage.
one of my favorite tracks of all time uses this trick. i've always loved this kind of rhythmic manipulation, a track i'm working on right now uses it. the bass part is polyrhythmic and until the kick starts you're totally expecting it an 8th note later. i'm currently trying to work out a nice way to bring it in so it isn't quite so jarring. the best i've come up with is a subtle reversed cymbal to add a little light distraction. one track that gets me every time with displacing the 1 is fuck the pain away by peaches.
one more thing for this post... if you're an ableton user, set off one of your clips, and then while it's playing mess around with the start point for the clip. that's the little arrow pointing to the right underneath the left loop marker (if the loop marker starts at the beginning of the bar). you can find some really interesting rhythmic variations this way that you might not have thought about otherwise. whats more, you can record your live jamming in midi or audio into the arrange view. i haven't really seen this trick mentioned much in production forums but damn does it make shit sound good. afaik this is possible in other progs like logic but it's just not quite as flexible. say you have a loop that repeats itself, while the tune is playing, manually drag and drop the loop so that the 1 of the loop starts somewhere other than a '1' on the arrange page
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pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
btw can someone point me in the direction of an el-b tune with the hard to copy drums?
^^^^
yeah, really good post.
just a small thing about the idea of global swing. ie 66% swing applied to all elements.
yeah it does make it sound more coherent in a traditional sense, but i would encourage people to come up with different (by hand if possible) amounts of swing per part/channel. it can give you something approaching a live sound. and some elements having no swing is good too. for me, the funkiest things are rigid and also really loose together.
agree about the ableton start point thing. if you think about it like a melody thats slightly ahead or behind a beat, then you can tailor the start point to your tastes.
the ableton 8 groove engine is much improved btw, its worth learning to use, opens up a load of possibilities (albeit ones that are available to you with careful midiprogramming) i couldn't be bothered to go back to 7's method.
one small thing about drums also. velocity is possibly one of the most important things when it comes to making beats. for years i didn't really pay enough attention to it. but since i've been more up with that my beats have approved to no end. and get real dramatic with it. it affects the feel of the beat so much.
one last thing. fuck the grid, within reason of course.
yeah, really good post.
just a small thing about the idea of global swing. ie 66% swing applied to all elements.
yeah it does make it sound more coherent in a traditional sense, but i would encourage people to come up with different (by hand if possible) amounts of swing per part/channel. it can give you something approaching a live sound. and some elements having no swing is good too. for me, the funkiest things are rigid and also really loose together.
agree about the ableton start point thing. if you think about it like a melody thats slightly ahead or behind a beat, then you can tailor the start point to your tastes.
the ableton 8 groove engine is much improved btw, its worth learning to use, opens up a load of possibilities (albeit ones that are available to you with careful midiprogramming) i couldn't be bothered to go back to 7's method.
one small thing about drums also. velocity is possibly one of the most important things when it comes to making beats. for years i didn't really pay enough attention to it. but since i've been more up with that my beats have approved to no end. and get real dramatic with it. it affects the feel of the beat so much.
one last thing. fuck the grid, within reason of course.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
tru tru
i was thinking more along the lines of uber tight 2step
that spacek track is dope
i was thinking more along the lines of uber tight 2step
that spacek track is dope
grizzleb
Well-known member
Proper dilla vibes to that beat.
I think it's a fine line with the no quantise thing. Over the last year that 'out of time' thing was big in vogue and it's really easy to go overboard, for that sluggish sound to be the main thing in the track. A beat has to be somewhere in the middle for me. A good groove well done is way harder than just fucking the quantise off...
I think it's a fine line with the no quantise thing. Over the last year that 'out of time' thing was big in vogue and it's really easy to go overboard, for that sluggish sound to be the main thing in the track. A beat has to be somewhere in the middle for me. A good groove well done is way harder than just fucking the quantise off...
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Yeah, I'm finding the really swung / pushed beats pretty played out now.
I wish I'd pushed releasing a bunch of unreleased tracks I did mid-2005 that were all kinda like that... riffing on things like the Spacek records (the first one has some great production, I reckon), Dabrye, et al. The first gen of nerds who got excited by Slum Village / The Love Movement I guess.
About straight bits vs. swung bits, I read an interview with Pino Palladino, bassplayer of D'Angelo's Voodoo, about those sessions. He said ?uestlove played the straightest grooves he could manage so that Pino could get seriously off the beat without it sounding wrong. Great results, I reckon.
That idea of start-point shifting is great. I use an app called AudioMulch that's very flexible for that kind of thing - you can load something into a loop player and control or automate phase (i.e. start point) and bar length. Both are great fun.
I wish I'd pushed releasing a bunch of unreleased tracks I did mid-2005 that were all kinda like that... riffing on things like the Spacek records (the first one has some great production, I reckon), Dabrye, et al. The first gen of nerds who got excited by Slum Village / The Love Movement I guess.
About straight bits vs. swung bits, I read an interview with Pino Palladino, bassplayer of D'Angelo's Voodoo, about those sessions. He said ?uestlove played the straightest grooves he could manage so that Pino could get seriously off the beat without it sounding wrong. Great results, I reckon.
That idea of start-point shifting is great. I use an app called AudioMulch that's very flexible for that kind of thing - you can load something into a loop player and control or automate phase (i.e. start point) and bar length. Both are great fun.
still amazed by the kick in Digital... the youtube wont do it justice but its so meaty:
impeccable timing/weight.
off the grid/really swung doesn't have to be "out of time".
yeah that whole real loose thing has gotten to the point of saturation and i guess theres only so loose you could go really before you might as well get a child to play drums for you.
that spacek tune is outstanding.
yeah that whole real loose thing has gotten to the point of saturation and i guess theres only so loose you could go really before you might as well get a child to play drums for you.
that spacek tune is outstanding.
You're right about the side stick, a rimshot is when you hit the rim and the head of the drum at the same time.
pattycakes_
Can turn naughty
that's weird because when i listen to a track like playa playa, the snares are so late and the ghosts he's doing on the kick sound so swung that some of them are verging on triplets... the bass is definitely really fkn loose though. anyway, whatever is going on, that has to be one of the tightest bands on record since the end of the 70s. it's really sad what happened to d'angelo. i hope he gets his shit together and puts out that record he was working on.
pretty tasty, i never really got the hype surrounding el-b but this track would definitely have me getting down. the beat is just basic swung 16ths by the sound of it. it's all about having some kind of swing slider/knob to gradually mess with the feel, couple that with some nice choppy drum samples and you're set.
Client Eastwood
Well-known member
Enjoying reading this. There some tracks on Carl Craig's Mores Songs use this iirc esp early on. Cant think of the titles atm. Might be Televised Green Smoke and Domina.
edit : opps didnt spot Borderpolice's post.
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Client Eastwood
Well-known member
There's a video online somewhere with him explaining his technique. Sorry cant be more specific as im just here for a few mins today. I can look later if need be.
in max/msp you can make sequencers out of metronomic triggers and you can play and do equations with their times. so the length of the metro cycle can change or slide to different values on different triggers. they also control the amp envelopes. it works in milliseconds so the smaller number you send it, the shorter the cycle. at under 10 ms it becomes a droney rush
hint
party record with a siren
Is this more recent? I"m pretty sure he doesn't really mention his mad drum techniques here, but the bit about vocals is pretty cool.