Why Israel

N

nomadologist

Guest
YEs, crackerjack. I am an idiot. You, however, are brilliant.

Did you read the link about the book that an ISRAELI ZIONIST wrote about the last 150-250 years of American involvement in the middle east? It's written by a very prominent scholar.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
You listed two activities of the British government that were "pro-Israeli". Someone else might list activities that were "pro-Palestinian" or "pro-Arab". Whether you think that this is enough or sufficient or a good thing is obviously a partisan point, and as such is your own opinion. Personally, I feel that the British establishment is institutionally pro-Arab, especially the foreign office, but again... so what? And does that add up "bankrolling Zionism from day one", which was the statement in question? No, I don't think so./QUOTE]

Who gave the Israeli military their equipment? Americans. Who gave them relief aid? Americans. Who forced the UN to trade with Israel? Americans. Who set up major charities and other non-profits to ensure an Israeli state dating back from the 19th century? Americans.

Sometimes the government, sometimes individuals, but very often the government.
 

vimothy

yurp
Did you read the link about the book that an ISRAELI ZIONIST wrote about the last 150-250 years of American involvement in the middle east? It's written by a very prominent scholar.

I suggest you look at the Yom Kippur War in 1973 - that's when America began to supply serious military tech to Israel. Previous to that, America supplied plenty of arms to Arab states (bankrolling Pan-Arabism, I guess - you devious Americans), but pretty much zip to Israel (except for the HAWK anti aircraft system in 1962).
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Actually, a year or two ago I shared a flat with two Jews. There was this completely non-religious and very funny guy, who's making a living as a stand-up comedian now, who was a very camp, diminutive bisexual Mancunian stoner (see, you're laughing already, aren't you?) who on one occasion while rather drunk told me how sick it made him that so many Jews have the Shoah and their resultant 'world victim no.1' status as the central reference point of their whole identity. Really nice guy, one of his gags was that realising you're gay as a Jewish teenager isn't so bad because you can listen to as much Barbara Streissand as you like and your parents never suspect a thing. :)

My other flatmate was this absolutely mental* Finnish woman who hadn't been born Jewish but had married an Israeli guy at some point and possibly lived there too, converting to Judaism in the process, but had got divorced from him years ago and stayed Jewish - just like John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski.
She still took it seriously, a bookshelf full of volumes on Jewish history and culture, Chanukha candles and so on.

*I don't call her mental because of this, she was just mental generally
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Of course America bankrolled Saddam Hussein and his henchmen, as well, I'd never deny that. My father IS a Zionist sympathizing American, ok, and his entire point-of-view is BUILT on what people like him believe is a moral imperative to bankroll the Israeli state.

Vimothy, I know you must be rational on some level. You cannot simply ignore hundreds of years of history in order to "blame" Palestinians for having their land swiped from beneath their feet and wanting to retaliate. I'm not saying their actions are JUSTIFIED, just that they are politically INEVITABLE, as many many many political pundits and scholars have been trying to explain to Americans for years and years, since way before the 1970s...
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Actually, a year or two ago I shared a flat with two Jews. There was this completely non-religious and very funny guy, who's making a living as a stand-up comedian now, who was a very camp, diminutive bisexual Mancunian stoner (see, you're laughing already, aren't you?) who on one occasion while rather drunk told me how sick it made him that so many Jews have the Shoah and their resultant 'world victim no.1' status as the central reference point of their whole identity. Really nice guy, one of his gags was that realising you're gay as a Jewish teenager isn't so bad because you can listen to as much Barbara Streissand as you like and you're parents never suspect a thing. :)

My other flatmate was this absolutely mental* Finnish woman who hadn't been born Jewish but had married an Israeli guy at some point and possibly lived there too, converting to Judaism in the process, but had got divorced from him years ago and stayed Jewish - just like John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski.
She still took it seriously, a bookshelf full of volumes on Jewish history and culture, Chanukha candles and so on.

*I don't call her mental because of this, she was just mental generally

Good examples of the typical ideological range encompassed by Jewish people.
 

RobJC

Check your weapon
Good examples of the typical ideological range encompassed by Jewish people.

Is Mr Tea actually trying making a point, or just a drawing an observation from his experience?

I know there are many levels of "Jewishness", possibly extended by where you were actually born, raised, and lived, but I don't find that to be any different to any other faith, other than generally Jewish people have a more clearly defined feeling of who they are and what they "belong" to as a person.
Anyone trying to draw an opinion that Jewish people belong to huge conspiracy involved in world domination seems to forget that any person with either influence, money, or both tends to fall back on their heritige to spread their influences, regardless of religious belief.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Is Mr Tea actually trying making a point, or just a drawing an observation from his experience?
I'm not too sure, to be honest - I was just pointing out that I had, in fact, met some Jews, in answer to nomad's "have any of you actually MET any Jews?", which was presumably aimed at Vimothy but was addressed to all of us.
I know there are many levels of "Jewishness"
The Finnish woman was at least a Level 5 Jew.
 

RobJC

Check your weapon
Well, I'm sure we have all met "people", I assume, so whether they are Jewish is not is totally irrelevant as you cannot know all the Jewish people, so I wouldn't let a few narrow experiences form your judgement, negatively or otherwise.

Wouldn't it be great if we all lived like this because then there would be no recourse to clinging to stereotypical views to either feel belonging to, or discriminating against, any "group" of people - in fact groups wouldn't exist.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Yeah, but at the same time, there'd be no Italian, Turkish, Chinese, Thai or Indian food, there'd just be 'food'. And there'd be no classical, blues, jazz, rock, pop, rap, techno or bhangra, there'd just be 'music'.
Which would be a bit crap, I reckon.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Is Mr Tea actually trying making a point, or just a drawing an observation from his experience?

I know there are many levels of "Jewishness", possibly extended by where you were actually born, raised, and lived, but I don't find that to be any different to any other faith, other than generally Jewish people have a more clearly defined feeling of who they are and what they "belong" to as a person.
Anyone trying to draw an opinion that Jewish people belong to huge conspiracy involved in world domination seems to forget that any person with either influence, money, or both tends to fall back on their heritige to spread their influences, regardless of religious belief.

Of course. I didn't bring up knowing Jewish people in order to further some conspiracy theory--in fact, I did it to bring up the opposite point. It seems clear to me that one must have very little cultural experience with Jewish people and/or Zionism to believe the things Vimothy and Crackerjack (at certain points) are trying to claim. Not even Zionists (who are not synonymous with Jewish people at large, of course) argue with the fact that the UK, France, and the US were all financially instrumental in the creation of the Israeli state (as well as the Lebanese, Syrian, Jordanian states)
 
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nomadologist

Guest
Well, I'm sure we have all met "people", I assume, so whether they are Jewish is not is totally irrelevant as you cannot know all the Jewish people, so I wouldn't let a few narrow experiences form your judgement, negatively or otherwise.

Wouldn't it be great if we all lived like this because then there would be no recourse to clinging to stereotypical views to either feel belonging to, or discriminating against, any "group" of people - in fact groups wouldn't exist.

If only matters of "cultural identity" were that simple. I think your view is a little on the PC "color blindness" side, where one ends up trivializing racism and bigotry by pretending that cultural differences don't exist among national or ethnic groups. Everyone is entitled to have an ethnic identity to whatever extent they like, based on whatever identifications they may feel, however fantasmic.

However, it's obviously still important to recognize the vast differences between people within one ethnic group, especially as an outsider. Pretending that cultural differences don't matter or exist does nothing for the ethnic and racial groups that are oppressed--often, it has the opposite effect, e.g. the discourse surrounding "blackness" and being "thugged out"...
 

RobJC

Check your weapon
If only matters of "cultural identity" were that simple. I think your view is a little on the PC "color blindness" side, where one ends up trivializing racism and bigotry by pretending that cultural differences don't exist among national or ethnic groups. Everyone is entitled to have an ethnic identity to whatever extent they like, based on whatever identifications they may feel, however fantasmic....

I was being intentionally facile with my comments - its was hard to get across what I meant in trying to identify that stereotypes are the recourse of the bigot and sometimes of the perceived stereotype themselves, and therefore equally harmful to both (one side exclude the other, while the other can cling on to it in a seige mentality). Whole careers were built on this premise.

I agree, lets not ignore the positive sides of multicuturalism in any society (food, music, clothes, language, etc), but where the differences are used as a reason for exclusion they should be fought at every turn.

I also do not know any Jewish people who support the situation in the middle-east to the exclusion of sensible thought, and many openly acknowledge that there is a now a huge seperation between western and middle-east judaism due to the daily life both parties lead.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
I was being intentionally facile with my comments - its was hard to get across what I meant in trying to identify that stereotypes are the recourse of the bigot and sometimes of the perceived stereotype themselves, and therefore equally harmful to both (one side exclude the other, while the other can cling on to it in a seige mentality). Whole careers were built on this premise.

I agree, lets not ignore the positive sides of multicuturalism in any society (food, music, clothes, language, etc), but where the differences are used as a reason for exclusion they should be fought at every turn.

I also do not know any Jewish people who support the situation in the middle-east to the exclusion of sensible thought, and many openly acknowledge that there is a now a huge seperation between western and middle-east judaism due to the daily life both parties lead.

Yes, I agree. I think you're correct about the majority of American Jewish people, but I do know some very very strict "Zionist"-types (who otherwise barely practice) who believe very strongly in the Israeli state. My brother's best friend gets irate if you mention Palestinians, because most of his family is in Tel Aviv. I mostly try not to touch it, to be honest.
 

luka

Well-known member
thanks Tea, it just popped into my head fully formed. vim has changed his mind on this stuff though i want to stress that. hes excruciatingly embaressed of this incarnation.
 
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