Why Israel

[Mr. Tea]

Well yes, I presume Zionists are in favour of the continued existence of Israel! But my point is, the way I've heard the word used, Zionists are generally in favour of the expansion of Israel, the defence of the illegal settlements, and things like that. However the term may have been used 60 or more years ago, I don't think merely defending the continued existence of Israel makes you a Zionist. Most of the people I know (whom I've ever spoken to about this) would call themselves anti-Zionist in the sense that they support a self-governing Palestinian sovereign state, but certainly not at the expense of destroying Israel.

 

[vimothy]

Well yes, I presume Zionists are in favour of the continued existence of Israel! But my point is, the way I've heard the word used, Zionists are generally in favour of the expansion of Israel, the defence of the illegal settlements, and things like that. However the term may have been used 60 or more years ago, I don't think merely defending the continued existence of Israel makes you a Zionist. Most of the people I know (whom I've ever spoken to about this) would call themselves anti-Zionist in the sense that they support a self-governing Palestinian sovereign state, but certainly not at the expense of destroying Israel.

I think that you're needlessly confusing the issue, Mr Tea. Zionists are not necessarily in favour of increasing the size of Israel, and defending the existence of Israel doesn't make you a Zionist any more than defending the existence of France makes you a French nationalist. You're not an anti-Zionist (at least at this reading), you're anti-Likud or anti extreme Israeli right-wing.

Crackerjack has made the point already: Zionism supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in Israel. A Zionist would defend its founding and defend the reality of its existence. Anti-Zionists oppose this. Zionism is probably well passed its sell-by-date as a term, but I doubt that's going to stop anyone using it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Holy vanishing beedogs, Batman!

 

[nomadologist]

How else can you explain a people who are proud when their kids become bombs to kill Israelis? How else can you explain a people who dance in the street with joy when Israeli civilians are murdered?

Earth to Vimothy: Israeli nationalists also send their children out to suicide-bomb Palestinians (or at very least do things equally as evil and violent and politically destabilizing to the region), and also dance in the street with joy when Palestinain civilians are murdered.

They also do them on America's time and dime. It's not a fair fight now is it?

 

[nomadologist]

None of this is necessary. There is nothing unique and Islamic or unique and Arabic about reactionary and nihilistic radical-political movements. In origin, they are entirely European. They come from the same boring philosophical dead-zone as yr bog-standard avant garde. They are certainly foreign to Islam and the Middle East.

Huh? This makes no sense whatsoever. There are "nihilistic radical-political movements" in many societies the world over. There is nothing uniquely "Occidental" [or as you say "European"] about "reactionary" political action.

Many, many societies manage to have these movements that are completely outside the reach of the "philosophical" "dead-zone" of the "avant-garde" (these exist anymore?)

 

[nomadologist]

Do Israelis explicitly target kids (not accidents in theatre but actual operations which target kids)?

Do IDF commanders tell their troops to kill civillians on purpose?

The IDF have rules of engagement. Do the Palestinians?

Can you find any instances of Israeli terrorism?

Have you ever seen crowds of Israelis dancing in the streets at the news of Palestinian civillian deaths?

There is no moral equivalence. There is a political case on both sides, but there is no moral equivalence.

Answers:

Yes.

Yes.

Of course.

Search "Gaza settlers" and "conflict" on google.

Yes.

 

[vimothy]

Earth to Vimothy: Israeli nationalists also send their children out to suicide-bomb Palestinians (or at very least do things equally as evil and violent and politically destabilizing to the region), and also dance in the street with joy when Palestinain civilians are murdered.

In that case you won't find it hard to find evidence of:

Israeli children suicide bombing Palestinians;

Israelis celebrating the terrorist murder of Plaestinian civilians.

They also do them on America's time and dime. It's not a fair fight now is it?

I love this nonsense. Was it a fair fight when America wasn't involved and it was Israel versus the entire Arab nation? Would it actually be a fair fight if America wasn't involved?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Oh come on Vimothy, you know you're deluding yourself if you're trying to claim that the Israeli military isn't VASTLY superior in arms, equipment and training to the Palestinian militias. It is certainly not a fair fight, however you look at it, which the very reason for the asymmetry of the warfare, and the Palestinian militants' use of tactics such as suicide bombings.

Edit: and while we're on the subject of Israeli terrorism, it's worth pointing out that the IDF are by no means the only Israelis involved in this conflict - there have been many cases of 'civilian' settlers committing atrocities against Palestinians.

 

[vimothy]

Oh come on Vimothy, you know you're deluding yourself if you're trying to claim that the Israeli military isn't VASTLY superior in arms, equipment and training to the Palestinian militias. It is certainly not a fair fight, however you look at it, which the very reason for the asymmetry of the warfare, and the Palestinian militants' use of tactics such as suicide bombings.

I'm not trying to claim that the Israeli military isn't superior to Palestinian terror groups. I'm saying that this disparity only reflects recent developments. Go back further and you find Israel, a tiny country with a tiny population, without any American backing, fighting the rest of the Middle East, who were armed by the USSR. American involvement guarantees Israel against this now.

I think that the issue of "fairness" is interesting... ditto your reflexive justification of the Palestinians' reliance on war crimes as strategy...

 

[Mr. Tea]

And Israel has never, ever committed war crimes, has it?

 

[vimothy]

But that's beside the point - the Palestinians' entire strategy is based around war crimes, war crimes are the daily bread of the Palestinian struggle. The Palestinian terror groups explicitly target civilians, and 70% of the Palestinian population supports the suicide bombing of non-combatants as a tactic (+). You can't say the same thing about the Israelis, whatever you may think about the political argument that underlies the conflict.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But there are things you can say about the Israelis that you can't say about the Palestinians, too. Such as, that they bulldoze family homes while the occupants are asleep, and destroy hundreds of villages in another country with artillery, tanks and bombers just because a few Hezb guerillas are holed up there.

No doubt these are totally justified military responses to a terrorist threat, though.

 

[vimothy]

But there are things you can say about the Israelis that you can't say about the Palestinians, too. Such as, that they bulldoze family homes while the occupants are asleep,

Ok, you can say that. But they're not intenionally killing civilians and dancing in the streets to celebrate. Can't you accept that there is a fundamental difference between the two sides, regardless of how deserving you feel the Palestinians are?

and destroy hundreds of villages in another country with artillery, tanks and bombers just because a few Hezb guerillas are holed up there.

You're talking about the most powerful, best armed terrorist group in the world.

No doubt these are totally justified military responses to a terrorist threat, though.

Whether they are justified is obviously up for debate. But they are certainly responses to a threat, which is not something that you can say about Palestinian attacks on Israeli bus stops.

 

[nomadologist]

Ok, you can say that. But they're not intenionally killing civilians and dancing in the streets to celebrate. Can't you accept that there is a fundamental difference between the two sides, regardless of how deserving you feel the Palestinians are?



You're talking about the most powerful, best armed terrorist group in the world.



Whether they are justified is obviously up for debate. But they are certainly responses to a threat, which is not something that you can say about Palestinian attacks on Israeli bus stops.

Mr. Tea makes excellent points.

What about going in and seizing someone else's land by force is NON-THREATENING?

 

[nomadologist]

You're talking about the most powerful, best armed terrorist group in the world.

Who, incidentally, America also trained and armed and empowered in many ways.

oops. i meant "whom"

 

[Mr. Tea]

Ok, you can say that. But they're not intenionally killing civilians and dancing in the streets to celebrate. Can't you accept that there is a fundamental difference between the two sides, regardless of how deserving you feel the Palestinians are?

If you destroy a house with no concern for whether the people inside survive or not, I think that's pretty much the same thing as intentionally killing them.

You're talking about the most powerful, best armed terrorist group in the world.

What, the Israeli army? LOL.
Let's assume for a moment you meant Hezb. These guys managed to kill 120 Israeli soldiers and a total of 44 civilians: the IDF, on the other hand, killed around 500 Hezb fighters (which is fair enough: they did start it, after all) and around one thousand Lebanese civilians. Not to mention the one million Lebanese displaced by the conflict (compared to 300,000 to 500,000 Israelis displaced):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Lebanon_War

Which kicked off as a result of "Hezbollah militants fir[ing] rockets at Israeli border towns, wounding several civilians, as a diversion for an anti-tank missile attack on two armored Humvees patrolling the Israeli side of the border fence.[21] Of the seven Israeli soldiers in the two jeeps, two were wounded, three were killed, and two were seized and taken to Lebanon."

So a thousand innocent Lebanese died in an action that began to avenge a few injured civilians and rescue two soldiers. And you wonder why Israel isn't exactly the Middle East's Mister Popular?

Whether they are justified is obviously up for debate. But they are certainly responses to a threat, which is not something that you can say about Palestinian attacks on Israeli bus stops.

I'm sure Palestinian militants would tell you their actions are a response to the threat posed by Israel to their existence as a nation.

 

[nomadologist]

I'm not trying to claim that the Israeli military isn't superior to Palestinian terror groups. I'm saying that this disparity only reflects recent developments. Go back further and you find Israel, a tiny country with a tiny population, without any American backing, fighting the rest of the Middle East, who were armed by the USSR. American involvement guarantees Israel against this now.

I think that the issue of "fairness" is interesting... ditto your reflexive justification of the Palestinians' reliance on war crimes as strategy...

Are you out of your mind? The U.K. and the U.S. bankrolled Zionism from DAY ONE honey. Ask GW Bush (or any number of other Americans)--they're PROUD of it.

 

[nomadologist]

But that's beside the point - the Palestinians' entire strategy is based around war crimes, war crimes are the daily bread of the Palestinian struggle. The Palestinian terror groups explicitly target civilians, and 70% of the Palestinian population supports the suicide bombing of non-combatants as a tactic (+). You can't say the same thing about the Israelis, whatever you may think about the political argument that underlies the conflict.

Seizing land by force is a form of terrorism, and war crimes have certainly taken place in Gaza at the hands of Israelis.

 

[nomadologist]

can we start a pool to pay for history lessons for vim? i've got $50 on it.

 

[crackerjack]

But that's beside the point - the Palestinians' entire strategy is based around war crimes, war crimes are the daily bread of the Palestinian struggle. The Palestinian terror groups explicitly target civilians, and 70% of the Palestinian population supports the suicide bombing of non-combatants as a tactic (+). You can't say the same thing about the Israelis, whatever you may think about the political argument that underlies the conflict.

Depends which way you slice it. Abbas has committed himself to a political solution and Fatah have been largely disengaged from terrorism for several years now.

Also, a list of Israeli leaders with links to pre-48 terrorism, or post-48 war crimes (Sabra-Shatila?) wouldn't lack for names.