Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[IdleRich]

Is Sharon still in a coma or did he quietly die or what?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

^still in persistent vegetative state

 

[droid]

He's the living embodiment of the peace process.

 

[zhao]

no doubt many here thoroughly understand this, but seems to me systematically neglected in media and usual debates is the central role in the historical causes of this conflict in the modern period, of British colonialism.

it's always positioned as simply Jews VS. Arabs. a more accurate depiction might be as a post-colonial conflict, exhibiting typical patterns, not dissimilar to ongoing wars in parts of Africa.

maybe some of you history profs can expand

 

[crackerjack]

no doubt many here thoroughly understand this, but seems to me systematically neglected in media and usual debates is the central role in the historical causes of this conflict in the modern period, of British colonialism.

it's always positioned as simply Jews VS. Arabs. a more accurate depiction might be as a post-colonial conflict, exhibiting typical patterns, not dissimilar to ongoing wars in parts of Africa.

maybe some of you history profs can expand

It's made immensely more complicated by the history of the Jews and their ties to the area. Any post-colonial/Marxist/call-it-what-you-will analysis that takes no account of that is worthless IMO.

 

[droid]

The same old pattern, once again repeated. Jabari was actually in negotiations for (another) long term truce when he was murdered.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi...d-of-long-term-truce-with-gaza_b_2155540.html

 

[droid]

IDF 'gamifies' its website:

http://readwrite.com/2012/11/15/unbelievable-the-idf-has-gamified-its-war-blog

 

[droid]

UH OH

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

^yeah that's real bad news

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

tweet on Guardian live blog says Hamas is broadcasting responsibility claim from Gaza mosques. also saw a report that Al-Aqsa Brigade (Fatah armed wing) claimed responsibility. tho really doesn't matter who. no better way to unite Israelis behind govt and give leadership political ammunition than blowing up buses in middle of Tel Aviv. fucking stupid.

 

[droid]

Of course it stupid, but nonetheless it means infiltration from the west bank and/or Israel based cells, both of which, given the record over the last few years must be troubling from a security perspective. If it is Fatah (which seems more credible), then that is a major shift.

Also, I suppose this is some kind of response to the stymying of the ceasefire that was meant to be announced last night.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

actually Haaretz live blog says they have a West Bank source saying that if it was Al-Aqsa it was the Gaza Al-Aqsa wing, since West Bank Al-Aqsa was disarmed and pardoned (as part of peace process I guess, back when that was still a thing)

 

[droid]

Hmm... If they're somehow getting out of Gaza and planting bombs on buses then that is a gargantuan security failure.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

and as of a 1/2 hour ago Fatah's official website had nothing about it. plus come on it wasn't Fatah, not 8 days before Abu Mazen's bid and literally hours after he met w/Hilary C. I mean rogue actors maybe but not sanctioned by the leadership or anything.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I dunno dudes already in Israel would be my guess. I mean come on any armed Palestinian group worth its salt has to maintain sleeper operatives (or maybe not sleeper but, dormant) in Israel at all times as a contingency for exactly this.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

if it was Gaza Al-Aqsa (giving the orders at least) then that demonstrates how little control Abbas has over his own people there. I don't know if that should be surprising or not? Hamas and Fatah - recent Gaza under fire unity mouthings aside - generally genuinely hate each other but I don't know anything about Fatah's internal West Bank v. Gaza dynamic. none of it is good for Abbas either way. he already looks impotent to his own people, and the quickest way for him to lose international/UN support is for Israeli buses to start blowing up.

 

[IdleRich]

Oh dear. Any resolution just seems so hopeless.

 

[droid]

I dunno dudes already in Israel would be my guess. I mean come on any armed Palestinian group worth its salt has to maintain sleeper operatives (or maybe not sleeper but, dormant) in Israel at all times as a contingency for exactly this.

Yeah, of course, but that means they got in after cast lead, because if they had any sleeper cells, they would have used them then.

Alternatives are Fatah cells being co-opted by hamas (as you mentioned), Fatah cells operating independently, or arab Israelis.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

or I dunno, maybe someone (someone like Jabari, if not actually him) foresaw that cast lead wouldn't resolve anything and they should hold a card or two back for next time? or maybe 4 years is just a long, long time to be ever-vigilant and someone fucked up? (also how hard is it to get from gaza to egypt, then to the west bank and enter that way? I have no idea if that's even a thing that happens, I'm just wondering) but it's all speculation at this point. co-opted Fatah cells sounds like it makes sense tho.

or arab Israelis

yeah that thought crossed my mind. I don't even like to speculate about that cos Israeli Arabs already take so much shit in the loyalty dept but yeah, that's always the great fear.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

the who does become important tho, b/c if it was Hamas then that seals a ground invasion, right? but if it was Islamic Jihad or some splinter group or whatever then Israeli leadership can still save face. and if it was homegrown...well the Israelis are kind of fucked on that one.