Is this the end of the Reagan/Rove right?

swears

preppy-kei
End of the Reagan/Rove right? Nate Silver says wait and see...

One might likewise have been tempted to consider the combination of the Democrats' landslide in the 1974 midterms and Jimmy Carter's ascendancy in 1976 a 'realignment'. Reagan and FDR, however, were effective Presidents, whereas Carter and Harding were not, quickly managing to relinquish most of what they had gained. Barack Obama, perhaps, may be the first President since Reagan in 1980 to have an opportunity to realign the country; whether or not he'll do so is another matter.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/was-2008-realigning-election-ask-me-in.html
 

polystyle desu

Memories of green
I would agree with the comments on the fivethirtyeight blog.
Looking back to past elections may , may not help.
Sometimes -just sometimes something new happens.
I can remember us having a 'Do you think Obama can win ?' back and forth many moons ago , on a distant thread ...
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
One answer to Gabba Crossover's initial post ...
Here's Sarah !
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/12/opinion/12dowd.html?hp

I love Dowd.

It's been said a million ways by now, but I get a certain amount of schadenfreude/satisfaction in repeating it: you can read a lot into the meltdown of the neocons in their choice of Palin, whether she's really diva whackjob or not is kinda secondary.

It wasn't so long ago that republicans were blaming career mothers/feminists for all the evils of the modern world. Then, suddenly, they VP pick Sarah Palin is not an inarticulate, uninformed wingnut, but a model feminist who is being crucified by sexist lefties who just can't deal with the presence of a "feminist" who doesn't believe in a single feminist principle. (She changed Alaska law so rape victims have to pay for their own rape kits at the hospital, for fuck's sake! Rape kits are used by the state for evidenciary purposes.)

This campaign cycle really proved once again that republicans are stuck in the 1950s--a truly intelligent, self-possessed, media-ready republican didn't get the VP nomination because all those Hillary lovers were supposed to be blinded by Palin's chromosomes. Plus, she was pretty, ditzy, and didn't believe in "male disempowering" female human rights like abortion so she'd appeal to men in the base.

I used to think Anne Coulter was the apex of republican hypocrisy w/r/t "feminism", but they managed to come up with an even bigger joke.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Other things just continue.

For example, as resident collater of neoconservative arcana, I'll direct your attention to Michael Ledeen's review of a new book by Laurence Murawiec.

Murawiec is an interesting fellow. While advocating the overthrow of the House of Saud at a Pentagon presentation in 2002 he declared: "Iraq is the tactical pivot; Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot; Egypt the prize." He's also an ex-LaRouchie so God Only Knows what Richard Perle was thinking. Or Rand Corp for that matter.

Edit: "meltdown of the neocons in their choice of Palin"

As a point of order (or terminology) "the neocons" didn't "choose" Palin.

Another Edit: to be fair, from what I remember of reading that presentation, a lot of it (regarding the House of Saud at least) was, ironically or not, quite accurate.
 
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nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Other things just continue.

For example, as resident collater of neoconservative arcana, I'll direct your attention to Michael Ledeen's review of a new book by Laurence Murawiec.

Murawiec is an interesting fellow. While advocating the overthrow of the House of Saud at a Pentagon presentation in 2002 he declared: "Iraq is the tactical pivot; Saudi Arabia the strategic pivot; Egypt the prize." He's also an ex-LaRouchie so God Only Knows what Richard Perle was thinking.

Edit: "meltdown of the neocons in their choice of Palin"

As a point of order (or terminology) "the neocons" didn't "choose" Palin.

The article you link to has a mention of my favorite conservative boogeyman in it: the "cult of death" or "culture of death"...All of their enemies participate in one or both of these; muslims through jihadism and feminists through abortion. This is all said with a straight face while they worship Jesus, the charter member of the world's biggest death cult of all time.

Thing about Palin's vp pick is that McCain's advisors (mostly neocon bigwigs) were instrumental in it. McCain had only met her in passing a couple of times before he choose her via his aides and advisors. All of the anonymous campaign aide finger pointing about Sarah Palin is by-way of insuring no one has to take full blame for the whole Palin mess.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
I know Norman Podhoretz, Michael Rubin, David Frum and other genuine 'neocon bigwigs' worked on the Rudy Giuliani nomination campaign (that went well!) and I know that Frum and Charles Krauthammer both came out violently against the Palin pick...and Ken Adelman voted for Obama. Didn't hear a peep out of anyone else, though.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...key_mccain_advisors_were_lobbyists_for_s.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/mccain-economic-team-7-12-07.htm

http://www.newsweek.com/id/139898

The McCain campaign's foreign policy coordinator is Randy Scheunemann, a former top legislative aide for Republicans on Capitol Hill, including two former leaders of the Senate, Trent Lott and Bob Dole. Former Congressional Budget Office chief Douglas Holtz-Eakin coordinates economic policy. On national security issues, McCain receives advice from several generations of Republican strategists and former top foreign policy officials such as Henry Kissinger and Richard Armitage, often grouped in the realist camp of foreign policy, as well as William Kristol and Robert Kagan, leading neoconservative voices. The campaign lists Kagan as a leading foreign policy adviser, as noted below, along with State Department veteran Richard Williamson, former top defense and national security official Peter W. Rodman, and former CIA Director R. James Woolsey, who advises on national security and energy issues.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
I'll give you Robert Kagan and Jame Woolsey and Max Boot (not John Bolton - a Barry Goldwater Conservative) on the foreign policy front, but that's it...and I doubt they had much say in the Palin pick. When I say neoconservative, I'm talking about something quite specific. Just so we don't cross wires.
 

vimothy

yurp
I agree. Palin is hardly someone designed to appeal to yr typical foreign policy obsessed, effete, cosmopolitan neo-con voter. Social conservatives /= neconservatives.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
These neocons are an interesting bunch, and often surprise you in weird ways.

For example, I met Dov Zakheim at a friend's wedding in Copenhagen during the summer. After talking about the perils of circumcision, we got onto the subject of Russia and Georgia. He told me that he thought the big mistake that the Bush administration made was recognising the independence of Kosovo. "Huge blunder," he contended, and I had to disagree, while thinking, well, that's hardly the "neocon" point of view. He was such a massive name dropper too; it was all Condi this, Colin that. (Cough.)

Also, Hakim Bey's main source for his passages about the party state of Fiume in TAZ was Michael Ledeen's terrific book on the subject, D'Annunzio: The First Duce, which is pretty close to an anarcho-capitalist dissection and celebration, rather than the pseudo-fascist hagiography claimed by those who haven't read it. It is a very good book, and I won't defend the fucker beyond that.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I agree. Palin is hardly someone designed to appeal to yr typical foreign policy obsessed, effete, cosmopolitan neo-con voter. Social conservatives /= neconservatives.

Well, the strategy backfired, obvs.

She was directed toward the "base", yes, but the neocons engineered the campaign. From the "radical associations" bit to the "socialism" fearmongering, it had "Rove-like tactics" written all over it.

And Rove is *the* neocon for all time.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Male circumcision is pretty beneficial, it greatly reduces one's chances of contract/spreading HIV/AIDS, among other things. Not to mention women prefer it by a long shot.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
And Rove is *the* neocon for all time.


No, he isn't.

Unless you mean 'neo-con' in a blanket sense, in which case the 'neo' prefix isn't really relevant. Karl Rove is simply a conservative.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
Male circumcision is pretty beneficial, it greatly reduces one's chances of contract/spreading HIV/AIDS, among other things. Not to mention women prefer it by a long shot.

I dunno, I think the jury's still out on this. Some studies have found that it significantly reduces sensitivity, and promoting it in AIDS-ravaged regions runs the risk of backfiring badly by making circumcised men think they're 'immune' from catching it and therefore don't need to bother with condoms.

Um, as you were.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
And Rove is *the* neocon for all time.

Surely Rove is just the ultimate righwing Rep fixer, rather than an outright neo-con. The neo-cons (at least my image of them) have a stronger ideological base than just 'tax rich people less'. From your original list, I think Kristol qualifies too and he just lurrrrrrves Palin. Though Lieberman would've been the most obvious neo-con pick for VP.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Surely Rove is just the ultimate righwing Rep fixer, rather than an outright neo-con. The neo-cons (at least my image of them) have a stronger ideological base than just 'tax rich people less'. From your original list, I think Kristol qualifies too and he just lurrrrrrves Palin. Though Lieberman would've been the most obvious neo-con pick for VP.

That's about right. I'm not sure how much Kristol actually contributed to the McCain compaign other than glowing WS editorials and a front page for Palin. I haven't seen any evidence he was a direct advisor and that article doesn't provide any either. A lot of these 'neoconservatives' are just about folding into the mainstream conservative movement anyway; it's arguable that, after the Iraq debacle, and destruction of the 2nd Generation foreign policy persuasion associated with Kristol & Kagan, Perle & Frum, Paul Wolfowitz et al, the "neo" will become less and less pronounced and important.
 
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