Postmodernity and christianity
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scottdisco
rip this joint please
by emoticon
i suppose you could be a humanoid cylon :slanted:
but some of them are alright, so
although i don't like the Dean Stockwell ones very much
we'll overlook this in return for you and massrock not re-upping the ill-starred 'scottdisco may be a spy' thing that got up and running on the cops thread..
i suppose you could be a humanoid cylon :slanted:
but some of them are alright, so
although i don't like the Dean Stockwell ones very much
we'll overlook this in return for you and massrock not re-upping the ill-starred 'scottdisco may be a spy' thing that got up and running on the cops thread..
yes one can be a spiritual person, and immerse oneself in spiritual practices, and develop oneself spiritually and reach ever greater heights of knowledge, understanding, awareness, and sensation, without believing in any "thing" "super natural", such as "God" or ghosts.
i personally would define spiritual experiences as those which transcend the confines of one's individual being, in a connection to the universe. it's a feeling of elatedness, a "high" of sorts, where you feel you are not so alone, but indeed a part of every being that has ever lived, everything that has ever been. a feeling that the world is inside you, and you are inseparable from it.
you can have a flash of this feeling listening to a rock song, but it will not last long. or you can work on yourself to expand that fleeting moment you experienced while high on drugs, listening to your favorite band, and make it last a lifetime.
that's about as nutshell as anyone can probably get, as ludicrous as it is, in explaining things which have taken up a million pages, practices which a thousand generations of seers have devoted their lives to, in terms people of your cultural background might be able to absorb, even if just a little bit, in a couple of paragraphs on an internet forum.
LOL LOL LOL
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Zhao, there are a million ways to think about the interrelatedness of all things, or about energy flows, and rationalist or scientific explanations aren't exactly inimical to this sort thinking. In fact, some of the greatest thinkers about that "oceanic feeling" were cosmologists and psychoanalysts, even some modernists among them.
So I'm sick of the lazy binaries and dichotomies in this thread where it's "us" versus "them", and the scientists are just a bunch of no-fun, hungup, socially inept, unfeeling "robots" whereas all of you fun-loving, sophisticated, Rico Suave hippies have it all bagged up...speaking of stunted high school immaturity, that's about the height of it right there.
So I'm sick of the lazy binaries and dichotomies in this thread where it's "us" versus "them", and the scientists are just a bunch of no-fun, hungup, socially inept, unfeeling "robots" whereas all of you fun-loving, sophisticated, Rico Suave hippies have it all bagged up...speaking of stunted high school immaturity, that's about the height of it right there.
hey now luv, i'm completely, 3000% with you there! advanced physics describes the inter-connectedness of all things, so does many ancient spiritual teachings! away with bullshit dichotomies!
but did i in this thread, or anywhere else, ever use us-and-them language and say scientists are robots? no! i believe it is you who are consistantly, repeatedly condescending and dismissive towards "spiritualists", "new age philosophers", and "hippies"!
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scottdisco
rip this joint please
could you post some stuff from other studies please Zhao? i see Jarred Diamond gets mentioned quite a bit and i know you've recently mentioned Steve Taylor once, but if you've got links to other academic papers that'd be great.
cheers.
apologies if i've missed references buried in the thread- it's quite a long one!
i'm no expert! i've read stuff here and there, some authors' names i don't remember! just learning as i go along just like you! so no links at the ready, sorry...
edit: there was that chapter about the Dobe in case you missed it.
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Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
OK, then it sounds more like we're disagreeing over semantics more than anything of substance. Your definition of 'spirituality' seems to be more or less a combination of being interested in lots of different things, having a view of the world that might very loosely be described as 'philosophical' (esp. with regards to looking for underlying connections between things, rather than fixating on outward differences) and having the emotional sensitivity to appreciate art at a level deeper than simple entertainment or decoration.
I've expanded a lot on what you've said in a few words above, but is that a more or less fair extrapolation? Because in that case, what do you know, I'm pretty 'spiritual' myself!* And so, I should think, are most people who aren't irredeemably shallow idiots. But I still wouldn't describe myself as 'spiritual', according to how the word sounds and feels to me, because in my experience people use it connote a belief in a 'spiritual' realm of existence (that is actually, objectively there, as opposed to being a metaphor for certain states of human experience) - and so we're back to 'spirits' of some sort or another.
There are undoubtedly all sorts of unusual ecstatic states you can get yourself into, via various external and internal stimuli. I've experience it myself, and I'm sure most people have at some point - in fact I'd feel pretty sorry for anyone who hasn't. Hell, as cheesy as it sounds I've had goosebump moments solving quantum mechanics problems while listening to AFX's 'Analogue Bubblebath'. As you mention, it can be brought on by all kinds of things; drugs, music, art, meditation - and I'd add sex, extremes of physical experience or endurance, philosophical or mathematical inquiry and even humour. Let's not forget that the Zen scripture of mediaeval China and Japan is full of accounts of monks attaining satori as a result of unexpected moments of profound hilarity. So yeah, there are obviously many routes to that direct experience, unmediated by words or concepts.
Now I'm perfectly happy to accept that ancient religions have a great deal of truth encoded in them about human psychology and sociology, and even deep metaphysical ideas about ethics and ontology. Because of the very nature of these ideas, they are generally encrypted in the form of myths and parables; the trouble starts when people mistake these for literal truths.
*Despite your rather nasty aspersions about "people of [my] cultural background" - yes, I'm a product of the decadent, post-religious West, but you're the one with (as you've described them yourself, in as many words) a couple of emotionally-stunted automata for parents, right?
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Everyone who's been on this board for any amount of time knows how into "the experience" I am (and Mr. Tea is, and so forth), so if that's all spirituality means, ok--most people are spiritual. Even if it just means something like "mindfulness" in the Buddhist sense, I think most people have no problem with this, either.
The problems arise when someone decides that everyone who studies science (or anything, really) is just doing so because they're victims of some kind of mind-control. I'm just brainwashed, that's why I don't ascribe to new age mysticism. If we were all "right", we'd believe just as you do. Am I getting this right now, Zhao? This is what you seemed to be saying earlier in the thread, and in so many others.
The problems arise when someone decides that everyone who studies science (or anything, really) is just doing so because they're victims of some kind of mind-control. I'm just brainwashed, that's why I don't ascribe to new age mysticism. If we were all "right", we'd believe just as you do. Am I getting this right now, Zhao? This is what you seemed to be saying earlier in the thread, and in so many others.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
this is beautiful Tea. really, really deeply touching. actually to continue OT but the other week i'd been on it (in terms of - don't ask but - an awful lot of alcohol, little sleep or healthy food etc for several days etc) and for about half an hour wandering round Battersea felt something very strangely epiphanic/Zen (OK as extremes of physical experience go it's hardly a marathon, climbing Denali or being badly beaten but hey)
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
@Mr. Tea
A now semi-legendary quote from PZ Myers of Pharyngula blog, on the "courtier's reply":
I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk. Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.
See also: Blake's Law.
A now semi-legendary quote from PZ Myers of Pharyngula blog, on the "courtier's reply":
I have considered the impudent accusations of Mr Dawkins with exasperation at his lack of serious scholarship. He has apparently not read the detailed discourses of Count Roderigo of Seville on the exquisite and exotic leathers of the Emperor's boots, nor does he give a moment's consideration to Bellini's masterwork, On the Luminescence of the Emperor's Feathered Hat. We have entire schools dedicated to writing learned treatises on the beauty of the Emperor's raiment, and every major newspaper runs a section dedicated to imperial fashion; Dawkins cavalierly dismisses them all. He even laughs at the highly popular and most persuasive arguments of his fellow countryman, Lord D. T. Mawkscribbler, who famously pointed out that the Emperor would not wear common cotton, nor uncomfortable polyester, but must, I say must, wear undergarments of the finest silk. Dawkins arrogantly ignores all these deep philosophical ponderings to crudely accuse the Emperor of nudity.
See also: Blake's Law.
scottdisco
rip this joint please
it will surprise nobody to learn that that specious fuckwit Madeleine Bunting at the Guardian is often guilty of losing arguments in the spirit (no pun intended) of Blake's Law, as it were
i think the sense of connection and transcendence has been calcified or repressed in a lot / most people, who are tuck in the finite and isolated sphere of their egos, unable to empathize and motivated by selfishness.
i stand behind the broad definition of the "spritual experience", which i believe can happen at a techno party or a sunny day at the park. and i believe is accessible to all.
but to cultivate one self to have more access to this sphere of experience, to be more receptive, aware, conscious and alert, to be more "in the moment", and "awake", one needs to stop dulling one's sensitivity, and clouding one's mind with all kinds of noise, and immerse in some kind of "spiritual practice", which are very specific disciplines.
can be simple as 1 hour of meditation a day, where you try to let go of quotidian worries and thoughts which clutter the mind, watching them drift by like clouds, and regain control of your own being.
this has to do with defense against psychic vampires, and it has to do with resisting mind control from external forces, be it capitalism or whatever.
not that i'm very good at all this mind you...
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I like the idea of casting off the layers of representation, or at least trying to, and I'm into a couple of hinduistical principles about the regenerative powers of erotic energy. I think you can make things better for yourself, or even make a new self, by focusing really hard. Not easy, but it can happen.
But you're losing me again...don't really know what 'transcendence' means here, although I have some idea why religious people tend to trot out the term. What you're saying seems nice, and appealing enough, but vague to the point where I'm tempted to say that figuring out what you're actually after would be like nailing jello to the wall; anytime I ask for specifics, the goalposts will mysteriously shift out of reach, so why bother?
This is what religion or other forms nebulous "spirituality" excel at--making an argument for the realm "outside" of understanding that you're supposed to access through understanding nonetheless--usually of some holy book or set of rituals. But if anyone asks, there's no way to really put how or why this works this into words, or to explain what it means...except to other true believers. You just feel it. And if you don't "feel" it intuitively, you're wrong. Or a heathen. Or a victim of mind-control. Etc.
But you're losing me again...don't really know what 'transcendence' means here, although I have some idea why religious people tend to trot out the term. What you're saying seems nice, and appealing enough, but vague to the point where I'm tempted to say that figuring out what you're actually after would be like nailing jello to the wall; anytime I ask for specifics, the goalposts will mysteriously shift out of reach, so why bother?
This is what religion or other forms nebulous "spirituality" excel at--making an argument for the realm "outside" of understanding that you're supposed to access through understanding nonetheless--usually of some holy book or set of rituals. But if anyone asks, there's no way to really put how or why this works this into words, or to explain what it means...except to other true believers. You just feel it. And if you don't "feel" it intuitively, you're wrong. Or a heathen. Or a victim of mind-control. Etc.
swears
preppy-kei
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
Fleecing retirees for Jeebus, the Christian specialty.