bankruptcy of 'nuum as concept

It's an interesting situation. Certain members of Circle have been quite vocal on VIP2. Very vocal actually.
 

Blackdown

nexKeysound
It's a familiar situation, exactly parallel to the UKG olders/proto-grime youngers circa 2000.

Geeneus makes his case on grounds of lack of good production values, but one man's bad production values are another man's aethetics, and besides, tunes with bad production values have in the past changed the game: just look at "Pulse X."
 

m33k +i93r

TheUnridiculousBearMix
drawing lines between the bits you get something very tangled. and that's before you start adding in everything that's coming from elsewhere. yeah ardkore begat jungle, and jungle begat 2step, etc. but obviously that's not all that was going on by a mile. the term usefully points to futurist and fwd drives but its scope is still too narrow

When I interviewed Soulja, Gee and Supa D, there was lots of talk about Trident, clubs getting locked off and the such, which only added to the sense that it 1) was UKG circa 2000 all over again 2) that the tabloid "MCs = trouble, nice music = no trouble" is as clearly crap as it always was 3) that it goes to show that unless it's a club in a place thats visible to bloggers/media, ie the west end or shoreditch, it wont be considered to be happening.

To me these two opinions while seeming to be divergent are actually saying the same thing. what drives this argument I think is that the nuum's plus points are actually also its negative points. it's a great way to map lines of influence in specific areas over specific times, but picking the theory up and plonking it elsewhere is difficult. Like it works really well if you limit the discussion to London and the M25 orbital party scene, but once things spread out you'd need different continua for different areas, much like how Reynolds builds a narrative about Sheffield in Rip It Up & Start Again, only in reference to the specifics of the club culture in those particular areas.

As a universalisable theorem it is lacking, but to make it temporally and spatially specific it is superb. This is why people are taking issue with his distance from the crucible I think.
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
well, that's all the guy has to go on in new york, isn't it?

I don't know anything about him, read his books and thought that's not how it happened here, wondered how he managed to get some facts wrong about Sheffield and went back to making tunes, no biggy really.
 

straight

wings cru
I think the irony comes in that if it wasnt for reynolds continuum theory there wouldnt be half the tattling going on as there is. All the younger bloggers and journos are looking for the next big mutation of the bloody 'dubstep virus' cos they missed out on bragging about going FWD with 10 people on the dancefloor. Christ, maybe I'll be able to bore people about dancing to marcus nasty with 10 people on the floor at the egg? on my birthday and everything, it'll be an anecdotal peach.
 

luka

Well-known member
i went to fwd when there was 10 people on the dance floor a few times and thats why i stopped going cos it was the shittest club ive ever gone to by a long long long way....
ten blokes standing round drinking lager.
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
I think the irony comes in that if it wasnt for reynolds continuum theory there wouldnt be half the tattling going on as there is. All the younger bloggers and journos are looking for the next big mutation of the bloody 'dubstep virus' cos they missed out on bragging about going FWD with 10 people on the dancefloor. Christ, maybe I'll be able to bore people about dancing to marcus nasty with 10 people on the floor at the egg? on my birthday and everything, it'll be an anecdotal peach.

It's an interesting point but it's not on the same level as 10 people at TG/Pistols/Clash gig. I think the rate that things are consumed, spate out and just plain old copied didn't help Dubstep at all - as well as the contrast between the people who make the music and those who blog it.
 

m33k +i93r

TheUnridiculousBearMix
Very good point, Martin.

To which I add, why does something have to be validated by 10 people on a floor to be 'innovative' and then when it becomes popular and outsiders become interested suddenly its vitality has gone? Why can't it provide a sound like its immediate present, like the sound of data streaming in incessant conduits or collecting in massive pools, and what it feels like to have all this media around us all the time? That's what minimal and dubstep are to me, someone who never experienced jungle and hasnt got on with drum & bass, and why I think a lot of dubstep in particular has a lot of similarity to something like Sunn0))) - congregational instead of euphoric, an almost ritualistic bass-worship. Which brings in the tribal-vibal things Reynolds wants, but here -


As with dubstep and micro/minimal, I do wonder: what is the Big New Idea here, the genre-defining innovation, the motor propelling it and us into the zone of the unforeheard? To me, a "possibility space" involves the opening up of a virgin expanse out of which new genres form, not a gently simmering limbo where choice morsels from earlier genres bob about, maintaining a moderately energized half-life.

he belies a pioneer-spirit kind of analysis which is defunct nowadays and irrelevant because the energy rush of futurism has been found out as a false dawn. Blackdown's right in saying there's been loads of innovation in dubstep because it has managed to do precisely what Reynolds is describing here - a swirling jet-black cauldron where influences are traded in quantum instead of linear progressions, where mixing it is like having a gigantic black canvas of bass to paint on - changing the trajectory of nuum genres to focus more on the present.
 

bassnation

the abyss
I don't know anything about him, read his books and thought that's not how it happened here, wondered how he managed to get some facts wrong about Sheffield and went back to making tunes, no biggy really.

well, i thought he was right on the money as regards the hardcore chapters. i don't know enough about detroit to comment on how accurate that was. although i accept he kind of leaves out scenes hes not that interested in. i remember 94 for being an explosive year for uk techno clubbing for instance, but thats not covered in nearly the same depth.

i loved the book, but then again i'm obsessed with hardcore rave.

talking of that thinking of starting a new blog just based around the simple concept of a list and commentary of my 500 favourite dance tunes. more news soon.
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
Very good point, Martin.

To which I add, why does something have to be validated by 10 people on a floor to be 'innovative' and then when it becomes popular and outsiders become interested suddenly its vitality has gone? Why can't it provide a sound like its immediate present, like the sound of data streaming in incessant conduits or collecting in massive pools, and what it feels like to have all this media around us all the time? That's what minimal and dubstep are to me, someone who never experienced jungle and hasnt got on with drum & bass, and why I think a lot of dubstep in particular has a lot of similarity to something like Sunn0))) - congregational instead of euphoric, an almost ritualistic bass-worship. Which brings in the tribal-vibal things Reynolds wants, but here -

I don't think it does need 10 people, it's clearly more an "ego" statement than anything and a sense of ownership. Once it goes wider you'll always get the same comments about it not being as good etc, happened with every movement - nothing new. I'm not sure what Simon wants tbh and fail to see how you can live the life from behind a computer, more a l-if-e. I get the feeling he's clinging to the "working class" roots of things but I could be wrong.


he belies a pioneer-spirit kind of analysis which is defunct nowadays and irrelevant because the energy rush of futurism has been found out as a false dawn. Blackdown's right in saying there's been loads of innovation in dubstep because it has managed to do precisely what Reynolds is describing here - a swirling jet-black cauldron where influences are traded in quantum instead of linear progressions, where mixing it is like having a gigantic black canvas of bass to paint on - changing the trajectory of nuum genres to focus more on the present.

The future not showed up, it just left us on the corner waiting for our individual jet packs.
 

Martin Dust

Techno Zen Master
well, i thought he was right on the money as regards the hardcore chapters. i don't know enough about detroit to comment on how accurate that was. although i accept he kind of leaves out scenes hes not that interested in. i remember 94 for being an explosive year for uk techno clubbing for instance, but thats not covered in nearly the same depth.

i loved the book, but then again i'm obsessed with hardcore rave.

talking of that thinking of starting a new blog just based around the simple concept of a list and commentary of my 500 favourite dance tunes. more news soon.

I just hate books that get facts wrong, it just makes it hard for me to trust the rest of the text but at the end of the day it's no biggy.
 

mos dan

fact music
i went to fwd when there was 10 people on the dance floor a few times and thats why i stopped going cos it was the shittest club ive ever gone to by a long long long way....
ten blokes standing round drinking lager.

that's a hilarious and rather believable bit of dissent from the 'official' history mate :)

i am as ever somewhat paralysed by being able to see the value in both sides of this argument about the relevance of continua in 'our' music.

i DO know, however, that predicting things is dangerous and complicating, and as i've said (with my history graduate hat on) on lower end spasm for ages and ages:

YOU CANNOT PROJECT HISTORY FORWARDS.

i also think that if you live significantly removed (geographically or otherwise) from the scenes you're commenting on then you need to offer plenty of caveats to your authority.
 

m33k +i93r

TheUnridiculousBearMix
YOU CANNOT PROJECT HISTORY FORWARDS.

yeah this is the cut-and-thrust of what i was saying.

i also think that if you live significantly removed (geographically or otherwise) from the scenes you're commenting on then you need to offer plenty of caveats to your authority

guess i should admit that i got into minimal through parties and clubs while at university when i had the chance to experiment with certain things and i got into dubstep through radio, and am commenting on the basis of what i hear and read. as a philosophy graduate i find the theory that goes with music intensely interesting - hauntology included. just for the record, like, not trying to hog the thread or anything.
 

mos dan

fact music
as he does (he says he is at home listening to his computer, and hasnt been in a club)

sure, fine, good.

but he also decided grime was dead in september 2006 because he couldn't be bothered to listen to pirate radio while he was on a two-week holiday in london: http://blissout.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_blissout_archive.html#115712865319712450

i don't know why people jump on reynolds' opinions for or against all the time. to me he's a good writer whose views are often (not always) irrelevant or inaccurate because, well, this is club music, isn't it? and he's not in the clubs.
 

bassnation

the abyss
isn't he allowed to blog about funky because he is Simon Reynolds, or is nobody allowed to write about music they merely heard and havent really engaged in?

somewhat hysterical polz. like no-ones advocating censoring him are they ffs?

of course he can write what he wants, but the same goes for the critic's critics. especially if they have more first-hand knowledge of the scene from going to actual events. this is dance music we are talking about. of course its valuable to read multiple viewpoints, etc, but lets not completely devalue first hand.
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
it seems like several babies are being thrown out with the theoretical bathwater here. the idea of the continuum works, because it starts at a viable point and ended up at an equally viable point (uk garage initially, but now moving thru dubstep, grime and funky).
of course musicians from other disciplines are going to become involved in hardcore musics (take rob haigh, kevin martin etc blah blah blah for example and, i'll agree that there are definitely interesting links between the industrial scene and the rave family tree). however, this is all a bit of a null issue in terms of the broader picture, which is by far the most important picture here.
hell, mj cole is famously "classically trained" (words i hate reading in general) and klute was tommy stupid from the stupids in a former life, but i'm sure we can all agree that the relevance of classical music and skate punk are pretty small fry when considering hardcore musics' overall trajectories (and yes i know tons of rave music sampled classical motifs, but that is not the point i'm making at all).
the continuum has always been about jamaican influences on british music, but that's just because that's the way it's worked out. what's most important about it is they are a family of musics that are connected by history and represent british inner-city experience, especially london experience.
**this** is the point to start debating things with simon, not trashing the whole theory.
funky is totally rude, especially when compared to traditional house music played by that music's gatekeepers (especially the british ones). i mean, come on.. the rhythms are different and the way that it is played is much, much rougher for a start.
the thing is that it's a different kind of rudeness.
it's not specifially jamaican in origin (although definite traces of that exist - wheelbacks, MCing, which is essentially toasting etc). it's far more pluralistic than that, but if anything its an africanised rudeness... look at it like that and funky is definitely still hardcore.
i love this factor of funky, too, and find it by far the most interesting thing about it.
listening to funky and talking to people like MA1 and Apple etc, it's clear that this is a real big step for london street music: the first real representation of african experience.
it's also extremely valid in the sense that it's, as i've said several times before, a reclamation of house itself in the uk — a style of music that, in its mainstream context, became more or less completely divorced from black britain. i mean, look at pictures of, say, fabric up against those circle party pictures and you'll see what i mean immediately.
that's where it becomes worth analysing and disagreeing, because that's the point where we're actually getting somewhere.
*i* think that this is something that simon hasn't fully appreciated thus far, but saying that the whole continuum concept is now bankrupt because of one disagreement is pretty ridiculous. history is never bankrupt, in any context, especially culturally.
also, while i know i'm not a moderator, when discussing the work of people who post here regularly and are members of the community, can we please keep it polite. i've mentioned this before. criticism and debate is good. unpleasant snippiness, like calling people boring and irrelevant, is really not very cool at all.
 
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bassnation

the abyss
it's clear that this is a real big step for london street music: the first real representation of african experience. it's also totally cool in the sense that it's, as i've said several times before, a reclamation of house itself — a style of music that, in its mainstream context, became more or less completely divorced from black britain. i mean, look at pictures of, say, fabric up against those circle party pictures and you'll see what i mean.

not having been to these events, does anyone rave to this music on e? i know the bassline crowd do it, but funky is a bit more alien to me.

i don't want to hear that old chestnutt about black people not doing ecstasy cos it just ain't true in my experience, of south london at least.
 
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