Fascism!

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
How about this, can you at all see the errors in your reading of this little exchange.




I mean you just got that so wrong in every way I don't know where to begin.

At that point, I was responding to the several times that everyone who was critical of communism had been accused of being a "nihilist" or "cynic"...that wasn't a direct response to YOU, although, for some reason you seem to have decided it was. Sorry if that was confusing for you.

And just so you know--I don't really care who has a "go at me", it's the damn internet. Real life is more important than this bullshit. This is just idle chatter. Who cares about it? Not me.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I've never called myself a communist if that's what you think btw. Just to be clear.

No one said you did! Padraig certainly didn't. He was responding in theory to the idea, which you seemed to ascribe to, that it is somehow "difficult" to call yourself a communist today.

There's no point in even bothering. The last four or five pages of this thread hasve turned out to be one of the most useless wastes of time on Dissesus ever, and that's saying something.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Really, you don't think that sometimes people have a go at you because you invite it?

Hello dere.

Nikbee wasn't "having a go", he was dead serious. Until he got called out on it.

Unless he's some sort of fake-"communist hypothesis" troll. Which is a distinct possibility, but in which case--bravo.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
3000 nazis will gather and march 1 street over from my place tomorrow may 1st... 10,000 antifa are expected too.
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
3000 nazis will gather and march 1 street over from my place tomorrow may 1st... 10,000 antifa are expected too.

I make that, ooh, about 3,000 severely arse-kicked Nazis?

Unless the cops turn up and spoil the fun, like they always do. :(

Edit: what are neo-Nazis calling themselves in Germany these days? I assume the march wouldn't have been allowed at all if they were explicitly linking themselves with the good ol' NDSAP.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
So what do people think about antifa?

To be honest it seems to me like an excuse for people to beat other people up (probably in the same way neo-nazism is, or any extreme group for that matter)

I frequent black metal forums at times, and have heard many stories of bands who may simply enthuse an ecological ideology, who've had gear and equipment smashed and been beaten by large groups of antifa members....


P.S, who was it who wrote that book called 'Violence' about this sort of thing? I once read a bit of it, but can't remember the author, I'd like to pursue it a bit more.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
So what do people think about antifa?

To be honest it seems to me like an excuse for people to beat other people up (probably in the same way neo-nazism is, or any extreme group for that matter)

P.S, who was it who wrote that book called 'Violence' about this sort of thing? I once read a bit of it, but can't remember the author, I'd like to pursue it a bit more.

had a burrito with the starter of this thread last night and he was talking about this, that the extreme left is the same thing as extreme right... and that the left was probably responsible for more violence in the past year than the right, with all the car burnings and such.

EDIT: i was notified of the misunderstanding just now (in my defense the conversation took place during an after dinner ganja session) -- Josef did NOT say the extreme right and left are the same thing, but that this was the story which was being put out in corners of the German media (for example, http://www.thelocal.de/national/20100430-26887.html) which he DOES NOT agree with.

apologies...


on some levels there are of course many similiarities, the right hates foreigners, the left hates the upwardly mobile who move into town (class foreigners).

actually not sure who the residents of this pretty neighborhood with nice boutiques and well dressed people should fear more :confused:
book sounds good. may be one of the following?

http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Harv...=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-9
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Micr...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Big-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Read...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-10
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
i'm thinking about avoiding the whole thing which kicks off in about 45 minutes and hide in my studio, a big middle finger to the one designated day international workers should rest. but curiosity will probably get the upper hand and i will go check it out.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Edit: what are neo-Nazis calling themselves in Germany these days? I assume the march wouldn't have been allowed at all if they were explicitly linking themselves with the good ol' NDSAP.

i guess the main one is NPD, but there are a bunch of other groups and political parties...

so the street where they were supposed to march down was filled with leftists, and after waiting the whole day by the train station a few blocks away, the nazis gave up on their rally and went home. a victory but pretty anti-climactic, as a (really immature) part of me did want to see some action...
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
P.S, who was it who wrote that book called 'Violence' about this sort of thing? I once read a bit of it, but can't remember the author, I'd like to pursue it a bit more.

I think he actually means 'On Violence' by Hannah Arendt. don't always agree w/her, but highly recommended nonetheless. as is 'On Revolution'.

also, with all (massive) respect to man like josef k (do me a favor zhao & wish him my best next you see him) to equate the "extreme right" & "extreme left" and say - if that is what was said - that both are the same thing is untrue, nor is class resentment the same thing as the various prejudices of the same right. that's a facile, inaccurate comparison.

w/r/t to antifa & similar, definitely there excesses, especially an excess of chest-thumping in unwarranted situations (akin to the loudest male "feminists" being the biggest skirtchasers), but it's still the kind of thing I'd rather have around than not.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
had a burrito with the starter of this thread last night and he was talking about this, that the extreme left is the same thing as extreme right... and that the left was probably responsible for more violence in the past year than the right, with all the car burnings and such.

on some levels there are of course many similiarities, the right hates foreigners, the left hates the upwardly mobile who move into town (class foreigners).

actually not sure who the residents of this pretty neighborhood with nice boutiques and well dressed people should fear more :confused:
book sounds good. may be one of the following?

http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Harv...=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-9
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Micr...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Big-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Read...r_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-10

It was Zizek's one: http://www.amazon.com/Violence-Big-...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1272693729&sr=1-1

Will attempt to read it properly sometime soon, but definitely should be a good/interesting read.

How was it? I saw a little bit about on the news here (NZ) so must've been fairly big?
 

Dr Awesome

Techsteppin'
also, with all (massive) respect to man like josef k (do me a favor zhao & wish him my best next you see him) to equate the "extreme right" & "extreme left" and say - if that is what was said - that both are the same thing is untrue, nor is class resentment the same thing as the various prejudices of the same right. that's a facile, inaccurate comparison.

I'm going to have to disagree with that.
It's a sad and dangerous misconception to wilfully believe that the far right as "worse" than the far left (If indeed that's what you're getting at), because, amongst other reasons the left alone had exclusive claim to the ideal of creating an "ideal" or "utopian" society where all men where equal.
Both extreme ends of the scale are equally as bad in practice, Stalin was just as racially motivated as Hitler, and committed genocide as well. Kulaks, Turks, Jews and many many other racial minorities were deported, killed or forced into slave labour. His economic policies led him to preside over great famines killing millions.
Your statement about the difference between class resentment and the presumed racial resentment of the right is a naive view of the world - in EVERY case thought history of governance (or attempts thereof) by the far left, violence and bloodshed have followed in it's wake. From the very beginning Lenin instigated a campaign of terror against his political opponents, set up the Cheka, and eventually killed off all of the less radical Mensheviks. Not once has a far left government been established without being corrupted in the process away from "true" communism - all that's left is an authoritarian and totalitarian oligarchy, instigating mass surveillance, state terrorism, a cult of personality, absolute control of the economy, restrictions on the freedom of speech etc etc over it's populous with - which is similar to the various fascist regimes of the world.

One also can't lay claim to the idea that various communist states were "for" their workers, and held workers rights to be paramount - indeed strikes within the Soviet Union were dealt with most severely, I read of one case where the the workers of a factory who were on strike were forced to sign a form upon resumption of work (at gunpoint) that said something along the lines of "I, a worthless pig and dissenter of the true communist cause hereby renounce all claims to legitimacy the above strike" - something even the most decadent western capitalist would never make his employee's do. It's also important to remember that liberal democracies have upheld workers rights, unions and the like far better than any other system of governance.

There is a very good book that talks at length about the various lies and misconceptions of socialism, and it's relative value against the far right, entitled "Last Exit to Utopia". I suggest you read it if you're still of the opinion that one of the extremes of either end of the spectrum are better than the other.
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
I'm going to have to disagree with that.
It's a sad and dangerous misconception to wilfully believe that the far right as "worse" than the far left (If indeed that's what you're getting at), because, amongst other reasons the left alone had exclusive claim to the ideal of creating an "ideal" or "utopian" society where all men where equal.
Both extreme ends of the scale are equally as bad in practice, Stalin was just as racially motivated as Hitler, and committed genocide as well. Kulaks, Turks, Jews and many many other racial minorities were deported, killed or forced into slave labour. His economic policies led him to preside over great famines killing millions.
Your statement about the difference between class resentment and the presumed racial resentment of the right is a naive view of the world - in EVERY case thought history of governance (or attempts thereof) by the far left, violence and bloodshed have followed in it's wake. From the very beginning Lenin instigated a campaign of terror against his political opponents, set up the Cheka, and eventually killed off all of the less radical Mensheviks. Not once has a far left government been established without being corrupted in the process away from "true" communism - all that's left is an authoritarian and totalitarian oligarchy, instigating mass surveillance, state terrorism, a cult of personality, absolute control of the economy, restrictions on the freedom of speech etc etc over it's populous with - which is similar to the various fascist regimes of the world.

One also can't lay claim to the idea that various communist states were "for" their workers, and held workers rights to be paramount - indeed strikes within the Soviet Union were dealt with most severely, I read of one case where the the workers of a factory who were on strike were forced to sign a form upon resumption of work (at gunpoint) that said something along the lines of "I, a worthless pig and dissenter of the true communist cause hereby renounce all claims to legitimacy the above strike" - something even the most decadent western capitalist would never make his employee's do. It's also important to remember that liberal democracies have upheld workers rights, unions and the like far better than any other system of governance.

There is a very good book that talks at length about the various lies and misconceptions of socialism, and it's relative value against the far right, entitled "Last Exit to Utopia". I suggest you read it if you're still of the opinion that one of the extremes of either end of the spectrum are better than the other.

All interesting and important points - but I think what slowtrain and padraig were mainly talking about wasn't far-left and far-right overall regimes, but far-left and far-right groups and organisations that operate within the modern liberal-democratic regimes. I.e. groups like antifa on the one hand versus groups like, say, the EDL on the other.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
It's a sad and dangerous misconception to wilfully believe that the far right as "worse" than the far left (If indeed that's what you're getting at)

it wasn't, but thanks for the terrible analysis. you're a newbie, so you dunno, but I will deliver you from your ignorance. anyone who has been around for a minute -will- know that mostly I loathe communism and the large majority of communists, especially ones of the authoritarian variety, and the idea that I would be defending Stalinism is, frankly, laughable - leaf back through this very thread to see what I'm talking about. if you still don't understand, let me spell it out for you - my sympathies are with the Kronstadt workers, the CNT/FAI in Spain, the students of May 68 who rejected the US & the USSR, etc - all crushed or betrayed, in the first two cases with extreme violence, by authoritarian communists. so in short, you can f**k right off w/that nonsense.

what I did say is that it's a silly, inaccurate comparison. equivocating superficial abstractions of the "far left" & "far right", especially when neither is actually defined, doesn't help anyone to understand the actuality of either. Franco's dictatorship was not Pol Pot's was not Mussolini's. the real problem, anyway, is that anything can be tossed into either "far" category, and thus discredited, under while the rest of us commiserate about extremism and agree on a gentlemen's shake in the "center". it's mostly a smear tactic (tho NB that I'm not accusing either zhao or our man in Berlin of this).

(as far as workers' rights, you'll perhaps remember - or not, as you don't seem to know what you're talking about - that the great majority were brought into being by long & arduous struggles carried out by militant labor movements. the idea that liberal democracies have "protected" those rights is more than a bit of a whitewash. aside from Reagan v. air traffic controllers, Thatcher v. miners, etc, the truth is that a great deal of the more unseemly labor practices, like sweatshops & the murder of labor unionists & so on, takes place where your eyes can't see them (perhaps cos you're so busy reading up on the Horrors of Communism), i.e. in "developing" countries that export goods to those liberal democracies, largely alleviating the need for Dickensian warrens in London or New York (or in your case, Christchurch).)

(also in re the failures of socialism - which are indeed many & varied - please don't cite shite books by silly French ex-Socialists who go on to write apologias for the U.S. that get rave reviews on the WSJ op-ed page as authorities)
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
All interesting and important points - but I think what slowtrain and padraig were mainly talking about wasn't far-left and far-right overall regimes, but far-left and far-right groups and organisations that operate within the modern liberal-democratic regimes. I.e. groups like antifa on the one hand versus groups like, say, the EDL on the other.

must admit that's completely what i read into it as well; we all know our history round here after all, tbf.
 
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