Is Humanity Dooomed?

[Mr BoShambles]

but doesn't the system (whatever that means) have a kind of life of its own, totally exterior to the subjects that produce it? or rather, doesn't the system produce the subject, and not the other way around? ie we are a reflection of it.

agency -- structure.

mutually constitutive i reckon.

 

[Agent]

i don't believe in an 'interior.' even thought is exterior, as it's confined to the prearranged molds of ideology, language, history, etc. now those systems are likely entropic, spiralling toward an inevitable failure/disaster, so maybe we're doomed after all.

 

[Agent]

actually i don't believe in exteriority either. when in doubt, invoke the Klein Bottle:

 

[josef k.]

So, where are we left?

 

[Agent]

in William S. Burroughs territory, who, btw, definitely thought humanity was doomed

by Burroughs territory I mean a universe that is topological, holographic, psychedelic, evil, incomprehensible, etc.

 

[josef k.]

I recognize this.

See also:

"If human beings were shown what they're really like, they'd either kill one another as vermin, or hang themselves."
Aldous Huxley

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I'd like to be optimistic, of course, but this:

Humanity rarely thinks as a whole, it is divided along many lines. Often a problem solved for one person/group is a problem created for another. Also, in solving a problem it is common to generate novel problems in the process.

in tandem with this:

I believe that the system is an expression of humanity, not an alien power hanging over it. If the system is suicidal and destructive, crazed and short-sighted, this is because...

doesn't exactly get my hopes up.

tho perhaps per Mr. BoShambles' comments it would be best to change "system" to something like "the sum total of what humans have done, for better or (mostly) worse, is an expression of humanity & not an alien power hanging over it".

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

but as far as stockpiling a bunker for when the global market collapses, and shit like that, i won't hold my breath.

it's one of those things which will always seem utterly crazy & laughable until it isn't. a "collapse" of that kind is unlikely anyway - as I said imo really only a nuclear war (or I guess an outbreak of some kind of plague - tho I'm not an epidemiologist, I dunno how likely this is or how it would look) could break about that kind of immediate collapse.

the people I know who are doing stuff like this aren't operating under delusions - exactly the opposite, they're mostly worried about, y'know, learning how to grow food & getting off the grid, very practical things.

 

[josef k.]

Getting off the grid... maybe a good idea. Flee from the doom.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Getting off the grid... maybe a good idea. Flee from the doom.

unfortunately it's really only open to ppl with access to a certain level of resources - as conscious choice at least, of course there are many many people around thw world living "off the grid" by default or cos there is no grid where they live. plus it's a passive course of action - you've accepted that ultimately no solution(s) (as opposed to quick fixes) can be found so you're going to look after you & yours. which is how I feel tho I'd very much like not to.

plus it's a subcultural scene.

plus in terms you might like more if everyone fled from the doom then no one would be fleeing. also if you could flee from it then it wouldn't be doom, which is all-encompassing. I think fortifying yourself against the doom would be more accurate.

 

[josef k.]

Of course, various subcultures are one way in which people try to flee from doom. Actually, I think a lot of humanity is about fleeing the doom. Joining the army, for instance, and submitting to discipline. Which of course leads to yet further doom.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

I meant literally fortifying yourself tho.

Still tho I think that doom is something you can't flee from. You can try I guess. But I mean, that's what the essence of being "doomed" is, something which is inescapable. Really the only way is to meet it head on - trying to figure out what's wrong, before you're doomed, and attempting to preempt it by making changes.

Once you've decided you're doomed what is the point of anything? Everything is equally meaningless.

 

[zhao]

I believe that the system is an expression of humanity, not an alien power hanging over it. If the system is suicidal and destructive, crazed and short-sighted, this is because...

this is the center of everything i have been saying:

the way we live today, and the systems and powers which govern it, is a very, very recent phenomenon in the history of humanity: a blink of an eye.

saying that it is "human nature", is like saying how you are groggy and in a bad mood when you get the flu is the true essence of your personality.

it is hard to remember or imagine for us, but before this stupid fuck-up, life and its organization was very different.

and i'm not saying we should return to a pre-mistake way of life, (well maybe, in ways different than the obvious ridiculous ones), but it is important to realize that we are at least CAPABLE of living in an egalitarian way. and it won't hurt to learn from the way our ancesters have survived for hundreds of thousands and millions of years -- actually it might be the only way forward, by studying the past.

 

[zhao]

To make it meaningful you would need to be specific about what constitutes this "system" you refer to; and the nature of this "power", i.e. who holds it, where/how it is manifest etc

sure that would make it meaningful. but i think most people know what i'm talking about when i say "the system(s) which prevent change or solutions being implemented" -- the one(s) that murdered the electric car, the one(s) that destroyed the metro subway in Los Angeles, the one(s) that uses resources to fight wars instead of co-operate toward solving problems...

 

[zhao]

Humanity rarely thinks as a whole, it is divided along many lines. Often a problem solved for one person/group is a problem created for another.

true. we have lived with arbitrary lines and the separation of illusion for so long we don't remember our commonality. and to erase those bullshit borders... is where my east meets west mashup albums come in.

Also, in solving a problem it is common to generate novel problems in the process. The cumulative effects of this mean that we undergo continual adaptation and transformation; but there is no single direction and no end-point.

well we have to just get better at problem solving -- solar panels across the sahara should take care of energy for every house hold on earth. eco-friendly farm land across much of Africa or South America give enough food for everyone. massive restoration and regenerative efforts turn back global warming within a decade or 3, and with it, clean water.

also don't forget that when a smoker stops smoking, his lungs immediately go to work to repair the damage: tissue grows, toxic waste expelled: that's why you cough more in the days right after quiting -- the earth itself will be helping us to get back to equilibrium.

but none of this is going to happen. instead, what we have to look forward to is war, natural disasters, famine and plague and more war.

 

[vimothy]

Er, how exactly is life worse than it was in the past? Our prospects? We seem to have gone from is humanity doomed to why humanity is doomed a bit too easily.

 

[craner]

Aformentioned waves of radical superstition.

The ecological stuff is all untrue, obviously.

 

[vimothy]

eschatological tendencies

Maybe a more interesting question is, why does humanity think it is doomed, and think it so consistently?

 

[craner]

Because it is!

 

[zhao]

Maybe a more interesting question is, why does humanity think it is doomed, and think it so consistently?

I recommend this book. a study of past civilizations which have destroyed themselves, often with the entire population dead.

the problem is not that we are too paranoid, but quite the opposite: we are too proud and think similar fates can not befall us. (dissensus is NOT a reflection of societies at large)