playing smaller venues

zhao

there are no accidents
the absurd nonsense you're prone to spouting on a variety of topics

you've said this before, but i'm curious: topics such as? tom waits? and what else?

it's not the music that's the problem, it's your particular & fascinating combination of snobbery & cluelessness

ok i will plead guilty on the snobbery charge. sometimes i can be, or come off as, conceited.

but again: what other areas have i talked about in which i am "clueless"? besides (arguably) Tom Waits.

your bollocks about "universally irresistible" is just that, bollocks.

oh yeah? are you saying that Sex Machine or Billy Jean isn't any more universally irresistable than The Darkside - Hardcore Drum'n'Bass Style?

it's the inexplicable personal attacks that bother me, as if putting up a tune is some kind of great & terrible affront to his thread on playing at "regular" bars

nah, no personal attacks man. i even like a few of the earlier tunes you posted upthread. just that last one i thought was especially terrible, and i think would work in about 0.001 percent of watering holes around the world.

and some around here talk about that "early hardcore" "proto jungle" stuff ALL THE DAMN TIME. aging british ravers nostalgic about their first ecstasy experiences, and trying to give it more importance by endless theorizing, and attempt to make it out to be the golden era, the end-all of dance music. pretty myopic if you ask me.

and a thread which clearly stated in the original post not about "specialized scenes", you go on to post page after page of UK Hardcore Continuum music. it's fine to an extent but i'm just saying that some of that shit sucks and that there are millions of forms and styles that would work better in smaller venues.

i can be admittedly a bit (or a lot) abrasive... but it's ok that i speak my mind yes?
 

zhao

there are no accidents
if zhao played that sort of thing at anywhere i used to go to he'd either be assiduously ignored or bottled off, depending on whther people wanted to dance or not.

just clarifying: are you talking about the Afro boogie funk disco and Cambodia psych, or the early UK hardcore?
 

luka

Well-known member
im talking to you, you talk the most sense on this thread padraig, im talking to zhao and mms. they seem to move in quite chi chi circles (not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that.)
 

zhao

there are no accidents
It's never a mistake to bring this record along:

61KHDp8fhbL._SL500_AA280_.jpg


"Don't Leave Me This Way" is unstoppable.

indeed this is a GREAT fucking recommendation. much appreciated.

Don't Leave Me This Way is awesomeness defined. and at a very mixable 120 BPM...
 

zhao

there are no accidents
your stuff zhao! the hardcore would go down fine.

you seem to think this thread is about what music would work in YOUR neighborhood bars. as if... London is the center of the world or something.

but no. that hardcore shit would ONLY work in a few bars in your neighborhood. no where else.
 

muser

Well-known member
Seems like what this thread was really about is you trying to get validation, and parade, your eclecticism and taste in music.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
nope.

this thread is about what music works in bars of non specific geographic location.

and it is my belief afro (or otherwise) rock/funk/jazz works 100 times better, in almost all bars across the world, than UK early rave music.

no surprise that the the dissensus nuum nerds are having a hard time with this statement.
 

zhao

there are no accidents
this thread is about playing to a diverse audience from all walks of life.

and you all think early UK jungle? the joke's on you i'm afraid.
 

elgato

I just dont know
why i'm posting in this on a lovely sunday is a bit of a question in my mind, but this has got at me a fair bit

broadly the issue is this of universality, and the role of an individual in asserting such a quality

zhao, how do you think you know what 'the people' want universally?

do you acknowledge or consider that assumptions like this (and the assumptions that sit behind them) might be derisive of 'the people' that you allude to? or indeed the musicians that you are championing

how have you come to your conclusions? what is it that you feel gives them strength or validity?

btw i have absolutely no interest in defending uk hardcore or that whole argument (although im not sure the specifics are really what anyone in this thread is talking about), i would like to talk about the philosophy that underlies these argument
 
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elgato

I just dont know
a few things that i think might also be worth getting said also, which might help discussion, certainly in terms of the issues i'm interested in discussing...

i very much see issues of one sort or another in much of the 'western' relationship with music of elsewhere in the world, and think that there is an important discussion to be had about the relationship between that and socio-political issues / perspectives.

i find the attitudes and responses of most people i encounter (including myself) to 'non-western' music problematic in one way or another. this, however, very much includes those who champion its value in many cases. it also even includes the way that i've tried to frame the discussion here
 

zhao

there are no accidents
why i'm posting in this on a lovely sunday is a bit of a question in my mind

well for me it's i'm tired from yesterday all day eating BBQ in the park :)

broadly the issue is this of universality, and the role of an individual in asserting such a quality

accurate.

zhao, how do you think you know what 'the people' want universally?

do you acknowledge or consider that assumptions like this (and the assumptions that sit behind them) might be derisive of 'the people' that you allude to?

how have you come to your conclusions? what is it that you feel gives them strength or validity?

my reasons for asserting that afro or otherwise funk/soul/disco/jazz/rock has the widest appeal to a broad audience is that they are forms, or the roots or variations of forms, that most lovers of music can relate to.

i particularly like playing things that *sounds a bit like* things that people know, but is different, and IMO better -- so that people have the best of BOTH worlds: a feeling of familiarity as well as the refreshing feeling of being challenged.

for instance that Psych of West Africa will be a hit almost in ANY situation: because it sounds like "classic rock", it sounds like old disco, it sounds like Latin, it sounds like Funk, it sounds like Soul ---- and it is all of that and more. the grooves so funky, the melodies so sweet... yet never played on the radio or by djs, and most people do not know it. from experience it is about as "universal" a record as you can get.

you drop one of hundreds of SLAMMIN Howling Wolf tracks after some Nigerian psych rock, followed by some ace soul boogie such as Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes? and throw in a bit of the funkier side of the Stones? i dare say *most* bar crowds across the world will cheer.

anyhow much more universal than early Jungle. i don't know how is this even arguable.
 
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mms

sometimes
not in yates' wine lodge in stratford its not.
i think you are all talking about a very particular type of 'bar' here. if zhao played that sort of thing at anywhere i used to go to he'd either be assiduously ignored or bottled off, depending on whther people wanted to dance or not.

i said in your trendy shoreditch places so yes a particular bar, but you took my words out of context in the actual sentence they were written in, I also mentioned 2 step and trance, classic Luka, taking my words out of context in order to later make some sly comment up the thread like i seem to move in 'chi chi circles.'

Anyway this was about dive bars etc, relatively trendy places.


To be honest zhao, your music would go down somewhere fashionable and studenty, like brick lane in london, wouldn't go down in say a pub where i worked ages ago where they had a dj friday and saturday, ad the standard music was pop trance, 2 step r and b, a bit of rock and 80s kinda stuff, although the (obviously gay but closet) dj would play the full length 12" of tainted love when he was pissed enough.
 
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elgato

I just dont know
anyhow much more universal than early Jungle. i don't know how is this even arguable.

i think the problem i'm having is the term 'universal', because to me it is very heavily loaded with issues and complications. what you describe above is not universality in the sense that i interpret the word, but something relating to social construction and something more easily empirically derived. i interpreted it (and your statements) as relating to ideas of intrinsic values / norms and a much more abstract idea of universality

in terms of this way of framing the issue, i have fewer criticisms, and also to a fair extent care less! because then its just a discussion about the skills of a selector.

do you truly think that this is the realm within which this discussion has stayed though?

also even on this more limited discussion i would still argue that your position relies on very broad assumptions that i think would struggle to hold strong in the face of extended and varied experience.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
I don't think universalism is particularly relevant, here, anyway. From my experience of going out in the UK people who are just out for a saturday night respond well to stuff that they know. And in most of the UK - whether it's a trendy bar in shoreditch or the only club in a market town in the home counties or a friday night vertical drinking barn in Nottingham - chart busting rave pop is among the stuff that people will know, whereas west african psych isn't. And the original question was 'when you play in non-specialist dive bars, what do you play' not 'if you were playing to an amazonian tribe that had no previous contact with the outside world, what would you play'.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
you've said this before, but i'm curious...

oh tbf you talk way more nonsense on things like evolution & history than music. I also appreciate that 1) your nonsense is mostly heartfelt & 2) there's often a fine line between nonsense & "unconventional" (let's call them) views. actually I rather enjoy some of your nonsense.

what is far more aggravating is your insistence on not only the rightness but the superiority of your views - anyone who disagrees with you is myopic, or a closet racist, and so on. it couldn't possibly be that you're being unbearably self-righteous. the indignation when anyone calls you on anything. i.e. the minimal techno thread - getting all huffy when people roll their eyes at your 894th assertion that all techno actually comes from 3 guys in a valley in Senegal playing djembes or 3000 yrs ago or whatever. if you see what I mean.

oh yeah? are you saying that Sex Machine or Billy Jean isn't any more universally irresistable than The Darkside - Hardcore Drum'n'Bass Style?

well, first - horses for courses of course. secondly I wasn't talking ruffest Bizzy B darkcore madness here - I mean, a lot of the tunes mentioned freakin' made the Top 40. thirdly hell yeah I am saying that.

aging british ravers nostalgic...pretty myopic if you ask me.

and a thread which clearly stated in the original post...

yeh that's somewhat true - tho I personally am neither aging, British, nor a raver. on ther other hand I think you're just as guilty of doing the same for African & other indigenous music - even your eclecticism is a form of inverse myopia, the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything ever, can't see the trees for the forest & so on.

again I fail to understand your outrage, as if we get fined $100 every time we go offtopic. was this thread supposed to be some kind of dissertation on the wonders of mixing Norwegian free funk & Laotian space jazz or whatever for drunk people who don't care what you're playing and/or would rather just hear Daft Punk? or is it, yunno, a thread on a message board on a freaking music forum.
 

mms

sometimes
this thread is about playing to a diverse audience from all walks of life.

and you all think early UK jungle? the joke's on you i'm afraid.

most bars don't cater for a diverse audience from all walks of life too, they're usually very much split down demographic lines, catering for different types of customers and drinking.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
no surprise that the the dissensus nuum nerds are having a hard time with this statement.

as ever no one has a "hard time" with your statements - find them to be somewhat absurd, yes.

(although im not sure the specifics are really what anyone in this thread is talking about)

that's cos no one made such a stupid argument. it's a strawman so Zhao can again harangue us on our closemindedness and inability to appreciate his suiperior taste.

this, however, very much includes those who champion its value in many cases. it also even includes the way that i've tried to frame the discussion here

yeah, frankly echoes here of the promotion of "world music" in the 80s...fetishization (somewhat), exotification...all heart in the right place admittedly...as it was then I reckon...
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
and as MMS mentioned I think Zhao your indignation is perhaps misplaced...

you want to really know what goes down in bars, what's universal? come to some dive bars in rural America and toss on some West African psych disco boogie gem & we'll see about it's "universality"...
 

zhao

there are no accidents
oh tbf you talk way more nonsense on things like evolution & history than music. I also appreciate that 1) your nonsense is mostly heartfelt & 2) there's often a fine line between nonsense & "unconventional" (let's call them) views. actually I rather enjoy some of your nonsense.

you are free to think what you want on that stuff obviously. there are loads of people who think Jared Diamond or Martin Bernal is non-sense. but let's not stray too far from the topic at hand...

well, first - horses for courses of course. secondly I wasn't talking ruffest Bizzy B darkcore madness here - I mean, a lot of the tunes mentioned freakin' made the Top 40. thirdly hell yeah I am saying that.

haha if you think UK early rave is more universal than James Brown, you are just simply wrong.

you go to any non-descript bar on any given non-special night, where people of all sorts gather: picture Early UK hardcore blasting. now picture Soul/Funk/Rock boogie.

add deluded to wrong.


your eclecticism is a form of inverse myopia, the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything ever, can't see the trees for the forest & so on.

this is just bullshit dood. i'm exactly trying to see the forest and not getting lost in any one tree.


mixing Norwegian free funk & Laotian space jazz or whatever for drunk people who don't care what you're playing and/or would rather just hear Daft Punk?

not in my experience. the bar i played 2 weeks ago is a normal place with people from 20s to 40s, locals and tourists, artists and construction workers. a place where there is normally no one dancing. when i played people danced until 7AM, often yelping with joy -- and that's just because i decided to stop.
 
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