Iraq - Still, In Fact, Going On

droid

Well-known member
Scale, but not nature, not viciousness, not brutality? - so youre more or less agreeing with me.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
No, I'm talking about scale + nature + viciousness + brutality + genocide + ecocide + totalitarianism + WMD procurement + state support of terrorism + corruption of UN programmes + violation of international law...
 

droid

Well-known member
No, I wasn't putting those words in your mouth, but that shit is definitely happening on the Left now, and I can't not point out its idiocy.

I think there's plenty of things you might not point out, considering that (to labour the point) all of these naif, unsophisticated, unwashed anti-war protestors whom you look upon with such horrified contempt as they (allegedly) 'diminish' the nature of Saddam's regime, were completely right, both in their moral instincts and analysis of the consequences of the war.
 

droid

Well-known member
No, I'm talking about scale + nature + viciousness + brutality + genocide + ecocide + totalitarianism + WMD procurement + state support of terrorism + corruption of UN programmes + violation of international law...

lol. You forgot cruelty to animals.
 

droid

Well-known member
They generally knew nothing about it, hence their contradictory predictions.

I cant speak for every organisation or person opposed to the war, but I was there, and whilst there were many nuances, I remember the general thrust of the arguments clearly.

  • Morally wrong to go to war without just cause
  • War would result in the deaths of many civilians
  • War would destabilise Iraq
  • War would increase terrorism, regionally & globally
  • War would destabilise the region
All borne out. Completely vindicated.
 

droid

Well-known member
When a straw man collapses, I find it best not to grasp at his remains.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
Actually, I totally acknowledge that those points have been vindicated, but what I'm saying is that they were not inevitable and the pro and anti war arguments were equally strong and weak. Why it's still an argument is that because 1) there's a strong case that the Saddam regime could not be left alone, had to be challenged if not deposed and 2) the Bush administrations made catastrophic mistakes that caused the very outcomes the anti-war protesters predicted.

The live argument is: it was a genuine international relations issue that needed to be addressed, and the outcome was not inevitable.
 

craner

Beast of Burden
Which is why I keep trying to remind you about what actually happened, and challenging you on your lazy Chomsky props.
 

sadmanbarty

Well-known member
Craner, putting aside the issue of how much better the war could have gone if different policies were pursued, what's your opinion of the war as it actually happened? Is it feasible it was better than not invading at all?
 

droid

Well-known member
I dont think you're in a position to throw accusations of 'laziness' around. Ive addressed your points in detail. The arguments for deposing Saddam (not that this was the justification given of course) based on the threat iraq posed to the world were paper thin, Iraq was not a clear and present danger, and war was not necessary or just. The 'catastrophic' mistakes' of Bush and co. were entirely predictable, which is why even the neanderthals of the left were able to, well, predict them.
 

droid

Well-known member
I discovered an interesting tidbit during the course of this conversation actually. We all know that the US sold Saddam Anthrax - in fact it was one of the things confirmed by the desperate postwar search for WMD. What I didnt know was that Iraq was offered a menu of Anthrax bacilli from which they chose a particular strain... I can almost picture the scene....

Cast of Characters:

SADDAM HUSSEIN (dictator of Iraq)
TARIQ AZIZ (Iraqi foreign minister)
DONALD RUMSFELD (US special Middle East Envoy)
WILLIAM L. EAGLETON Jnr. (U.S. Ambassador to Iraq)
LT. COL. JAMES C PATRICK(US biological weapons specialist)
VARIOUS IRAQI SCIENTISTS
REPUBLICAN GUARDS

(December 20th 1983, State Room, Al Faw Palace, Baghdad. A large opulent room, clad in pink, white and peach marble floor and walls, paneled wood doors and ornate decorative art motifs. Saddam, Aziz, Rumsfeld & Eagleton recline on three large Rattan Camelback Sofas gathered around two low coffee tables. A large pelican case, lined with foam and covered in yellow biohazard symbols sits on one of the tables. Several small vials filled with what appears to be grey dust sit beside the case surrounded by a cluster of Iraqi scientists & lab techs dressed in white coats. Armed Republican guards flank Saddam & Aziz and also stand at all doors and windows.)

PATRICK: ...this is one of most reliable anthrax strains, Vollum 14578... (Hands vial carefully to Iraqi scientist, who hands to another scientist, who hands it to Aziz, each examining it turn before finally handing it to Saddam, who holds it up to the light)

PATRICK:
…produced by the British. This is a real classic. We had a lot of success with this back in the 60's - the Brits actually released this on an island in Scotland during the war - made the whole place uninhabitable-

AZIZ: And how many died?

PATRICK: er... how many… what?

AZIZ: People! How many people?!

PATRICK: None actually, just a few sheep. (Eagleton glances fearfully at Saddam who calmly places vial back on table).

EAGLETON: If that's not to your taste your magnificence, we have many others... Jim - show him the 836

PATRICK: Ah yes, the 836 (Picks up a second vial). The Russians spent years on this one. It was Alibekov's flagship project. They've made great strides with the weaponisation process in Damascus- (Saddam clears throat)

AZIZ: (Leaping out of his seat) The Syrians?! You mean this came from the dog Assad!?

EAGLETON: (Glances at Rumsfeld who stares forward impassively) Yes, of course… we just thought you should see all of the… er… options. (Turns to Saddam) A million pardons your benevolence (Nods at Patrick, who is rummaging through sample case).

PATRICK: Perhaps this would be more to your liking? (Holds up third vial before handing to Iraqi scientist) 14578 M-36 - a highly virulent British strain. Guaranteed death within 48 hours if ingested through the lungs, remains active in soil for a minimum of 500 years. A top performer in laboratory tests-

SADDAM:
(Quietly) M-36?

PATRICK:
Em… I'm sorry sir? - I mean, Mr. President.

AZIZ: The numbers! What do the numbers mean?

PATRICK: Ah, the numbers. Well (Becomes aware of Saddam staring at him intently) 36 indicates the number of hosts the bacilli have passed through. You see the more hosts, the more potent the strain-

AZIZ: Yes, and the 'M'? What does the 'M' stand for?

PATRICK: (Turns and looks helplessly at Eagleton) um… the 'M'? Well, the 'M' stands for (Pauses) Macaque.

AZIZ:
Macaque?! Macaque - like the monkey Macaque?

PATRICK:
(Clears throat, then whispering) Yes… the monkey.

AZIZ: (Slams fist on table, shaking vials, screams) Do you take us for fools?! This filthy monkey anthrax is an insult to our great nation, no, an insult to the entire arab nation, and its great liberator, our beloved president and leader- (Saddam waves hand, Aziz instantly falls silent).

EAGLETON: (Glancing back and forth between Saddam & Rumsfeld) Im sure we have something here for you oh indefatigable one. Jim…? (Jim stands frozen to the spot) Jim!

PATRICK: (Starts), Yes, yes, we have one more strain here. The Ames - highly experimental. Tests show it has the potential to outstrip every other known agent… (Searches frantically through the sample case, finally plucks out vial and hands it to an Iraqi scientist, only for Aziz to snatch it from his hands and then pass it to Saddam).

PATRICK: Nobody has this one, it's a real exclusive. It's never been deployed on the field, so no known vaccine exists... (Saddam examines vial closely from every angle, paying special attention to label. Beckons Aziz closer and whispers, Aziz peers at label. After a moment they both turn to stare at Patrick)

AZIZ: (Clearly enraged) What does this say here (Hands vial back to Patrick) There - at the top.

PATRICK: er.. N - E - S - S

AZIZ:
(Shaking with fury) Yes?! And what else?

PATRICK: (Turns again to Eagleton who has his head in his hands)… Z - I - O - N

AZIZ: ZION???! Zion - as in Israel - Zion??!

PATRICK:
(Looks wildly around at the guarded windows and doors) Y-y-yes, Ness-Zion is the Israeli b-b-b-b-bioweapons institute… …we thought-

AZIZ: (Screeching, incandescent with rage) YOU THOUGHT WHAT? That you could bring the cast-offs of the corrupt Zionist entity into the presence of our glorious leader and leave here alive?!!

SADDAM: (Stands up suddenly and glares intensely at Rumsfeld. Aziz instantly sits down, Guards shuffle threateningly) I have welcomed you with hospitality to my country, to my home. I have shared my friendship, and the friendship of the Iraqi people with you. In return, you bring me a ZOO when I ask you for a WEAPON. When I said I wanted to deal with the Kurds I did not mean I wanted to kill sheep! (Aziz sniggers and is cut off by a glare from Saddam) Remember, my enemy is your enemy, and the enemy of your friends. Perhaps the French or the Russians will be more.. …sensitive to my needs (Pauses) Leave - NOW!

(Eagleton stands and glances nervously at guards, Rumsfeld stays seated rubbing his chin as Patrick rushes to place vials into sample case. As he picks up the case, one vial falls out and rolls across the table towards Saddam. The is a sharp intake of breath as Saddam plucks it from the air just as it falls from the table edge).

SADDAM: Wait. What is this?

PATRICK: (Shaking in fear, barely audible) That… that is Vollum 145789 BVK-1… (Saddam looks at him expectantly) …probably the most virulent of all the 145789 strains… it killed two American technicians and disabled another, vastly increasing it's potency (Warming to his subject)... Perfect dispersal pattern, suitable for artillery or aerosolisation. Beautiful bacteria colonies, looks exactly like a comma under the microscope-

SADDAM: But it will be a FULL STOP for our enemies!! (All Iraqis in room laugh uproariously, joined slowly by Eagleton, then Patrick, Rumsfeld cracks a wry grin)

SADDAM: (Saddam makes chopping motion, room falls silent) Now this, THIS is a weapon worthy to be wielded by the hawk of the arabs, th-

RUMSFELD: Mr. President -

SADDAM: -e lion of the Tigris and Euphrates, the liberator of Khorramshahr (Half hearted cheers from Aziz & the assembled Iraqis). With this sword I will lay waste to the enemies of the Iraqi peo-

RUMSFELD: MR PRESIDENT! (Saddam falls silent, one guard twitches, almost dropping his rifle, sweat beads on Eagleton's brow)

RUMSFELD: Mr President, If I may say (Saddam glares at Rumsfeld and raises one eyebrow), ahem... I knew of your unique talents... (Saddam's glare becomes a little less intense) ...I knew of the unique danger you posed to your enemies... (A hint of a smile appears on Saddam's face) ...I knew of your unique brutality.... (Room again goes deathly silent, Eagleton gulps loudly) your unique viciousness... (Saddam's mustache twitches, Aziz clutches at collar, guards begin to raise weapons, colour drains from Eagleton's face), your unique madness... (Saddam begins to turn red, guards shoulder weapons, Eagleton faints, everyone else freezes in place)

RUMSFELD: (Removes glasses, looks directly into Saddam's eyes and continues breathlessly) But Saddam, you magnificent bastard, I didn't know that you had such uniquely exquisite taste!

SADDAM: (Pauses before breaking into enormous smile and waving his hand dismissively at the room) Everybody, out! Out now! (Aziz leaps from chair, Patrick shakes Eagleton and helps him stand, Rumsfeld begins to unknot tie, Iraqi scientists gather up Anthrax samples).

SADDAM: (Catching Rumsfeld's eye, winking and gesturing towards the vials) But leave the Anthrax. (Doors slowly close as Saddam and Rumsfeld begin to undress).

(Fade to black)
 
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droid

Well-known member
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