thirdform

pass the sick bucket
I think the word 'liberal' has been so widely stretched and abused as to be virtually worthless these days, and should probably be retired. Socialists use it as a synonym for 'conservative' and conservatives use it as a synonym for 'socialist'. The author of that piece quoted by version seems to think it more or less means 'psychopath.'

Moreover, if liberalism is the problem, what's the solution? Should we be illiberal instead? But that just means 'authoritatian', doesn't it? Like, you know, Netanyahu and Hamas...

non-authoritarianism or anti-authoritarianism is illusive. here I tend to respectfully quibble with @droid to an extent, I don't think making this a question of legitimate vs illegitimate authority clarifies things, it just shifts it to the moral terrain. Ultimately all authority will be legitimate to someone, but it depends in the service of who.

Liberal democracies are also authoritarian, in the final instance. If they weren't, they wouldn't have tendancies to amalgamate to two/three party systems.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket

I don't understand the point of this article. Yes, communists don't or certainly didn't form a party opposed to all working class interests in 1848. Yes, the social democratic parties would still have existed without marxism. Yes, Lenin and luxemburg (better to say radical left) were vying for the leadership of the social democratic parties.

But here a line in the manifesto is ignored

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

It seems contradictory yes. But in reality as the article notes, splits are healthy for the movement, so much so that they must, ultimately, lead to the supremacy of the communist party, even if taken in aspic, communists are not opposed (in certain conditions of historical development) to other working class parties. Or put another way, all reformist (social democratic, labourist) and anarchising tendancies (even stalino-bolshevik, third world social democracy) will, sooner or later, cross over to the enemy class as capital reaches even more elevated heights in its productive capacities and the clashes between the contending classes become ever more violent and reach a fever pitch, as we are able to see in contemporary warfare. Thus no longer proletarian parties stricto sensu. The inverse theory, that capitalism will progressively decline and collapse due to paralysis indeed would turn Lenin into something like a garden variety liberal.

After all, the sine-qua-non of bourgeois ideology is that it never claims to rule in the interest of the propertied classes, but in the interest of the people. Thus labour in the UK is a bourgeois workers party, and in essence this is a contradiction that it has had to resolve since the 1920s, to now where it has simply become a bourgeois party.

You must remember that unlike Britain and France, Germany had still not undergone its liberal revolution, and thus strategic alliances with the bourgeois class to displace the rule of the juncker aristocracy could have been necessary. Of course, things turned out quite differently after WW I. In this sense, it is a fatal error to disentangle a party's theoretical clarity from its ability to act in a situation conducive to it taking power.

instinct is always more valuable than the university and its incubation of political culture in that sense. first you do, then you understand. first you obey, then you ruthlessly question. first you act, then you think, and organise things in a systematic order.

There is, of course, a way to misread this schematically as a kind of cultic obedience (loved by English philistines perpetually stuck on basic mode of their car racing games no doubt) but its a more general statement about physical determination, and that our consciousness always lags behind the real movement of things. in some sense, we are always judging things historically, this is how it has to be. even a communist party in the formal sense isn't immune from degeneration, this is not theology! and in fact there can never be any automatic guarantees or mechanisms to be put in place against degeneration, precisely because we will understand the degeneration as or after it has happened, as we are able to handle and process the material.

But to say the party has degenerated due to factions (or their banning) lack of democratic representation, pluralism etc etc, these are disconcerting symptoms granted, but these can never be seen as causes in and of themselves, and in fact to see them as such is a renunciation of a thoroughgoing materialism.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
non-authoritarianism or anti-authoritarianism is illusive. here I tend to respectfully quibble with @droid to an extent, I don't think making this a question of legitimate vs illegitimate authority clarifies things, it just shifts it to the moral terrain. Ultimately all authority will be legitimate to someone, but it depends in the service of who.

Liberal democracies are also authoritarian, in the final instance. If they weren't, they wouldn't have tendancies to amalgamate to two/three party systems.
For a start I think there's an important distinction between authoritarianism and authority per se. You could say that a state with no authority is no state at all, but that doesn't mean all states are authoritarian, or equally authoritarian. I'd have a hard time believing someone wasn't being disingenuous who said there wasn't an important difference between a state where authority is used to enforce equality of rights (between gay people and straight people, let's say) and one where it's used to deny the rights of some people (making sodomy a capital offence, in this example).

So when people like the person quoted above talk about "liberalism" (as they consider the term) to be just another kind of authoritarianism, or even totalitarianism, I have to wonder what alternative system they have in mind that's better than the illiberal alternatives, such as absolute monarchy, theocracy, Soviet-style state socialism, or fascism, but is also better than liberalism. Maybe in some cases they're advocating anarchism, which is a consistent position but works outside of a state framework altogether, although I suspect they're often just fans of state socialism, which they look at through the rose-tinted spectacles of Westerners who've never lived under that kind of system.

(As an aside, isn't it more or a less a US/UK peculiarity for politics to be dominated by two main parties? I think most countries in continental Europe have five or six or seven medium-sized parties and a whole bunch of small parties, at any rate. Not sure about democracies elsewhere in the world.)
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
Capitalism is fundamentally a process of the collectivisation and socialisation of tributary agriculture, (the agrarian revolution and the abolition of the dominance of landed property) and hence, the suppression of the freedom of the producer. Or put another way: the separation of workers from their material conditions of work. Free labour is freedom from the *land* as Banaji rightly notes.

How is what I said at odds with this fundamental point, at all? Of course capitalism involves the socialization of labor, and of course under conditions of capital that then engenders new unfreedom and misery. Proletarianization is catastrophic, it destroys humanity just as it manifests the conditions to create humanity anew. That’s what I meant by not privileging one side of the dialectic of labor and capital.
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
I don't understand the point of this article. Yes, communists don't or certainly didn't form a party opposed to all working class interests in 1848. Yes, the social democratic parties would still have existed without marxism. Yes, Lenin and luxemburg (better to say radical left) were vying for the leadership of the social democratic parties.

But here a line in the manifesto is ignored



It seems contradictory yes. But in reality as the article notes, splits are healthy for the movement, so much so that they must, ultimately, lead to the supremacy of the communist party, even if taken in aspic, communists are not opposed (in certain conditions of historical development) to other working class parties. Or put another way, all reformist (social democratic, labourist) and anarchising tendancies (even stalino-bolshevik, third world social democracy) will, sooner or later, cross over to the enemy class as capital reaches even more elevated heights in its productive capacities and the clashes between the contending classes become ever more violent and reach a fever pitch, as we are able to see in contemporary warfare. Thus no longer proletarian parties stricto sensu. The inverse theory, that capitalism will progressively decline and collapse due to paralysis indeed would turn Lenin into something like a garden variety liberal.

After all, the sine-qua-non of bourgeois ideology is that it never claims to rule in the interest of the propertied classes, but in the interest of the people. Thus labour in the UK is a bourgeois workers party, and in essence this is a contradiction that it has had to resolve since the 1920s, to now where it has simply become a bourgeois party.

You must remember that unlike Britain and France, Germany had still not undergone its liberal revolution, and thus strategic alliances with the bourgeois class to displace the rule of the juncker aristocracy could have been necessary. Of course, things turned out quite differently after WW I. In this sense, it is a fatal error to disentangle a party's theoretical clarity from its ability to act in a situation conducive to it taking power.

instinct is always more valuable than the university and its incubation of political culture in that sense. first you do, then you understand. first you obey, then you ruthlessly question. first you act, then you think, and organise things in a systematic order.

There is, of course, a way to misread this schematically as a kind of cultic obedience (loved by English philistines perpetually stuck on basic mode of their car racing games no doubt) but its a more general statement about physical determination, and that our consciousness always lags behind the real movement of things. in some sense, we are always judging things historically, this is how it has to be. even a communist party in the formal sense isn't immune from degeneration, this is not theology! and in fact there can never be any automatic guarantees or mechanisms to be put in place against degeneration, precisely because we will understand the degeneration as or after it has happened, as we are able to handle and process the material.

But to say the party has degenerated due to factions (or their banning) lack of democratic representation, pluralism etc etc, these are disconcerting symptoms granted, but these can never be seen as causes in and of themselves, and in fact to see them as such is a renunciation of a thoroughgoing materialism.

How does the article miss anything you’re saying about the dialectic of theory and practice? Where does it claim that the party degenerates due only to formal and ideological, and not material, factors? Why is it a pointless article? The quote you pull from the manifesto is cited and dealt with explicitly here, and not ignored at all. In the future, please state your disagreement plainly, where is it wrong, otherwise these digressions feel besides the point and borderline pedantic

Figures in the history of Marxism such as Lenin or Luxemburg or Kautsky should not be approached in terms merely of their theoretical perspectives or practical actions they took or advocated, but rather in their relation of theory and practice, or, why they thought they did what they did when they did so. As Adorno put it, theory and practice have a changing relation that “fluctuates” historically.
 

version

Well-known member
So when people like the person quoted above talk about "liberalism" (as they consider the term) to be just another kind of authoritarianism, or even totalitarianism, I have to wonder what alternative system they have in mind that's better than the illiberal alternatives, such as absolute monarchy, theocracy, Soviet-style state socialism, or fascism, but is also better than liberalism. Maybe in some cases they're advocating anarchism, which is a consistent position but works outside of a state framework altogether, although I suspect they're often just fans of state socialism, which they look at through the rose-tinted spectacles of Westerners who've never lived under that kind of system.

The writer of that Ill Will article's explicitly advocating for Anarchism, albeit in the typically vague way people tend to advocate for any alternative.

This is something I've repeatedly run into. You get a diagnosis of the current situation then they always hit a wall and end on some vague gesture toward another future being possible, another world, and that's it, until the next book, where they do the same again.
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
This is something I've repeatedly run into. You get a diagnosis of the current situation then they always hit a wall and end on some vague gesture toward another future being possible, another world, and that's it until the next book where they do the same again.

Still the absolute gold standard:

In the subway, there’s no longer any trace of the screen of embarrassment that normally impedes the gestures of the passengers. Strangers make conversation without making passes. A band of comrades conferring on a street corner. Much larger assemblies on the boulevards, absorbed in discussions. Surprise attacks mounted in city after city, day after day. A new military barracks has been sacked and burned to the ground. The evicted residents of a building have stopped negotiating with the mayor’s office; they settle in. A company manager is inspired to blow away a handful of his colleagues in the middle of a meeting. There’s been a leak of files containing the personal addresses of all the cops, together with those of prison officials, causing an unprecedented wave of sudden relocations. We carry our surplus goods into the old village bar and grocery store, and take what we lack. Some of us stay long enough to discuss the general situation and figure out the hardware we need for the machine shop. The radio keeps the insurgents informed of the retreat of the government forces. A rocket has just breached a wall of the Clairvaux prison. Impossible to say if it has been months or years since the “events” began. And the prime minister seems very alone in his appeals for calm.
 

version

Well-known member
In the subway, there’s no longer any trace of the screen of embarrassment that normally impedes the gestures of the passengers. Strangers make conversation without making passes. A band of comrades conferring on a street corner. Much larger assemblies on the boulevards, absorbed in discussions. Surprise attacks mounted in city after city, day after day. A new military barracks has been sacked and burned to the ground. The evicted residents of a building have stopped negotiating with the mayor’s office; they settle in. A company manager is inspired to blow away a handful of his colleagues in the middle of a meeting. There’s been a leak of files containing the personal addresses of all the cops, together with those of prison officials, causing an unprecedented wave of sudden relocations. We carry our surplus goods into the old village bar and grocery store, and take what we lack. Some of us stay long enough to discuss the general situation and figure out the hardware we need for the machine shop. The radio keeps the insurgents informed of the retreat of the government forces. A rocket has just breached a wall of the Clairvaux prison. Impossible to say if it has been months or years since the “events” began. And the prime minister seems very alone in his appeals for calm.

More and more I agree with Baudrillard that you can only read this stuff as fiction. That's from one of the Invisible Committee books, right? Reads like a novel.
 

version

Well-known member
I was reading a piece of theirs last night and found myself agreeing with some of it, but the bit I agreed with called into question whether they needed to write anything in the first place:

In France last winter, there was no need for ZADists to set up micro-ZADs on roundabouts, for leftist blockaders to go out and block everything, for the thinkers of the “whatever singularity” to invent the yellow vest. These days, it is the least “politicized” who are the most radical. No revolt is more terrible than that of citizens who have been taken for fools. If something like an insurrection suddenly appears, it is precisely because people did not intend to make an insurrection, but because they desire, beyond this, however confusedly, a revolution...

Those who have launched attacks on police headquarters, barracks, town halls and ministries in the winter of 2018-19 in France did not obey a mental construct, they simply drew conclusions from their own experiences, from what they live and see...

If you believe this, why are you still writing 'radical' tracts? You've just declared yourself irrelevant.
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
If you believe this, why are you still writing 'radical' tracts? You've just declared yourself irrelevant.

The anarchists I know here are involved in internal debates and splits around IC/Tiqqun-thought and its role in the Cop City protests, which I think have taken on a very ZAD-like form. I think one of the issues is that these types talk like this, but inevitably place themselves in this position of authority. Even this narrative of “they need not know not what they’re doing” means it just so happens everyone comes to the same conclusions as the Tiqqunist spontaneously. Self-flattery passed of as self-effacement. In this they are certainly the progeny of the Situationists.
 

version

Well-known member
The anarchists I know here are involved in internal debates and splits around IC/Tiqqun-thought and its role in the Cop City protests, which I think have taken on a very ZAD-like form. I think one of the issues is that these types talk like this, but inevitably place themselves in this position of authority. Even this narrative of “they need not know not what they’re doing” means it just so happens everyone comes to the same conclusions as the Tiqqunist spontaneously. Self-flattery passed of as self-effacement. In this they are certainly the progeny of the Situationists.

I've never understood how this communal, non-hierarchical stuff's supposed to work in practice. Seems as though it's doomed to break down, and much sooner than anything hierarchical.

There's a book where Baudrillard says we need to abolish power itself, which is fine, whatever, it's Baudrillard writing his fictions and pushing his models as far as he can. It's a different game when you get people setting themselves up as active extremists and going out in the street actually advocating for that sort of thing. How can you remove power entirely? It's not possible. Unless, like you say, what they mean by 'power' is just anyone but them being in a position of authority.
 

other_life

bioconfused
man i need to reread the marxist classics on authority and the notion of "socialist state", huh. So that i dont get nabbed with the spontaneists
 

dilbert1

Well-known member
Writing that makes you wonder if the author had to pause for a mop-up.

They really are trying out to be the Fishes from Children of Men. My friend and I always recite that line from the white dread-head one anytime we see something resembling propaganda: “THAT’S HOW THEY SPREAD THE FEAR!
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
How is what I said at odds with this fundamental point, at all? Of course capitalism involves the socialization of labor, and of course under conditions of capital that then engenders new unfreedom and misery. Proletarianization is catastrophic, it destroys humanity just as it manifests the conditions to create humanity anew. That’s what I meant by not privileging one side of the dialectic of labor and capital.

I never said it was at odds, merely that it needed greater elaboration.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
How does the article miss anything you’re saying about the dialectic of theory and practice? Where does it claim that the party degenerates due only to formal and ideological, and not material, factors? Why is it a pointless article? The quote you pull from the manifesto is cited and dealt with explicitly here, and not ignored at all. In the future, please state your disagreement plainly, where is it wrong, otherwise these digressions feel besides the point and borderline pedantic

yes, they are pedantic, because you can't dissolve everything in vague philosophical abstraction. Something the plats tend to do like most of the US ultra left as it tends to have a spontaneist orientation (although I'd agree the Plats don't share this orientation.)

I don't do agreement or disagreement, in polemics democracy has no value for us, what only has value is clarity. pedantry is not an insult nor something to be sniffed at, but a necessary mechanism for making your thought tight and controlled.

I went through an non-pedantic phase because I thought what mattered was the overarching picture, not the hammering in of pins and nails. But actually they are the most fundamental.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
yes, they are pedantic, because you can't dissolve everything in vague philosophical abstraction. Something the plats tend to do like most of the US ultra left as it tends to have a spontaneist orientation (although I'd agree the Plats don't share this orientation.)

I don't do agreement or disagreement, in polemics democracy has no value for us, what only has value is clarity. pedantry is not an insult nor something to be sniffed at, but a necessary mechanism for making your thought tight and controlled.

I went through an non-pedantic phase because I thought what mattered was the overarching picture, not the hammering in of pins and nails. But actually they are the most fundamental.

A good example of this is national liberation.

No Marxist would see it as a proletarian demand, and no marxist worth their salt would uncritically endorse it either. Yet what many of the council coms and anarchists do is simply dismiss it as irrelevant to the world dialectic of class struggle, and thus are unable to make sense of history. The Marxist left must reject this accusation.

Philosophy as such is the witchery of the modern age. If Hegel was the last great christian, he was, also, in essence the last philosopher. Philosophy is not and cannot be a secular sport, but is only theology at its most abstracted. And to understand that, one must understand pre-capitalist modes of production.

the left, its ascent and decline, is small fish in comparison.
 

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
For a start I think there's an important distinction between authoritarianism and authority per se. You could say that a state with no authority is no state at all, but that doesn't mean all states are authoritarian, or equally authoritarian. I'd have a hard time believing someone wasn't being disingenuous who said there wasn't an important difference between a state where authority is used to enforce equality of rights (between gay people and straight people, let's say) and one where it's used to deny the rights of some people (making sodomy a capital offence, in this example).

So when people like the person quoted above talk about "liberalism" (as they consider the term) to be just another kind of authoritarianism, or even totalitarianism, I have to wonder what alternative system they have in mind that's better than the illiberal alternatives, such as absolute monarchy, theocracy, Soviet-style state socialism, or fascism, but is also better than liberalism. Maybe in some cases they're advocating anarchism, which is a consistent position but works outside of a state framework altogether, although I suspect they're often just fans of state socialism, which they look at through the rose-tinted spectacles of Westerners who've never lived under that kind of system.

My disagreement isn't with what you have said per se, but with the idea that anarchism is a consistent position. Anarchists are forced by historical circumstance to act authoritatively, as in the Spanish civil war when the CNT instituted forced labour for war time.
 
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