Fascism!

[viktorvaughn]

Can't be bothered to read whole thread, so slight aside to people who know more about it than me - is it the right use of terminology to call the BNP fascist? I always wondered about that one.

 

[vimothy]

ustase came to my grandfathers village, made them dig their own graves, and shot them in the forest..

Hmmm -- these anecdotes and assertions – I’m not at all convinced that they are useful. Are you saying that when fascists come for you in the middle of the night, they come as fascists, but when communists come for you, they come as a betrayal of communism? If the mass rape of German women by the Red Army after WWII was a betrayal of the Event of communism, why can’t you say the same thing for the Holocaust?

 

[john eden]

Can't be bothered to read whole thread, so slight aside to people who know more about it than me - is it the right use of terminology to call the BNP fascist? I always wondered about that one.

I think it is correct to say that they are fascists (despite their denials) but not nazis.

 

[craner]

is it the right use of terminology to call the BNP fascist

It most certainly and definitely and specifically is. Don't be confused by the overt entryism - it's a strategy they can barely even coneal. I never tire of directing people to Chapters 2 & 3 of this book to give the BNP and, in particular, Nick Griffin, their correct context. I think I posted about the early links between Griffin and the Italian neo-fascist Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionarice and the exquisitely sinister Julius Evola on another read.

BNP's roots remain not on the right but explicitly fascist - they are part of the neo-Nazi and neo-fascist international, such that it exists.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

to briefly take up Vim's excellent takedown on Mao's famine crimes, interesting to remember the KMT were the bigger force of the two (competing, never really truly allied) Chinese blocs fighting the Japanese during WWII, but after that war the Communists quickly managed to take advantage of a lot of KMT eyes-off-prize blunders, including some incredibly serious and unpopular mistakes which helped the increasingly popular Commies no end.

who knows, maybe if the USA hadn't withdrawn support for the KMT during the Civil War, things might have turned out differently. (although the KMT ended up getting completely owned, so, hey.)

and if the US hadn't propped up Chiang in the first place (a tenuous alliance, by all accounts), aided by an AIPAC-esque China Lobby, then the Communists might have taken over much quicker. I dunno, just everything I've read suggests that the reason the KMT made blunders & that the Communists were able to take advantage of them is cos the Communists were (as a military force) better organized, more dedicated, better lead, etc etc. Either way, interesting how this topic relates to the "loss of China" myth - that it was the fault of handful of State Department officials - which kickstarted the worst period of US Cold War paranoia & set the stage for McCarthyism.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

you would not kill a nazi? well, they would kill you, no problem.

don't give them their freedom cos they're not gonna give you yours is it?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

so, armies to fight fascist armies required?

who decides which one is the fascist army, tho?

 

[josef k.]

fascism doesn't start as an army...

Felix Guattari is very insightful about this.

 

[nomadthethird]

Ahh, yes. The ever "predictable" one--the one you supposedly "just met", and whose "history on Dissensus" you don't know, but who, after a brief discussion of Badiou, you've completely ESPed!!

For you, I'm guessing...Queensborough College?

 

[nomadthethird]

i understood it was a joke.. of course..

the 'camps' were a joke!

ill get back to you on your humanism.. i have to go work.

and ive no idea where youre from.. relax. just a lil predictable, thats all.

most of your posts have been so crazy, i seriously seriously thought that you were just fucking with me.. playing some kind of joke..

How insane of me! To disagree with you. Jeez, the funny farm officials will be the next ones knocking at my door.

Yeah, right. A "joke"...those camps that legitimately happened in communist regimes, over and over. How funny.

 

[nomadthethird]

you would not kill a nazi? well, they would kill you, no problem.

ustase came to my grandfathers village, made them dig their own graves, and shot them in the forest.. they killed almost the entire village of 250 people.. the villagers did nothing but be Serb. they were living peacefully, until a very destructive force came along (fascists). how do you counteract this force?

is there something to negotiate here? this is a force of pure destruction. would you give them flowers? build schools? explain to them the wonders of humanity?

you seem to have many crappy associations with communism. i dont know where you get this, probably your fancy education.. it prevents you from thinking.. you cant think..

communism does NOT equal humanism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Althusser ).. where do you get this stuff?! i can give you some reading material, but does it matter? i dont think so.. you dont know how to read..

the only universality for a communist Subject is the impossible.. thats it.. yes, "abstract", but abstraction MATTERS (to put it as stupidly as fucking possible). this is what makes me human.. the desire to "think what might be in terms that break radically with what is."

individualism itself, and its obsession with difference is the problem.. i think badiou offers something wonderful in that regard.. he 'punctures' a whole through it. you need a good puncturing.

edit: ok now i really gotta go work.

First of all, what do you know about my "education"? Nothing.

But either way, more super cogent points from Nikbee.

Hey Nikbee, why don't you write a new Communist Manifesto. It'd be short, and would go something like this:

You can't think!! Are you crazy!??!?!? OMG communists never killed anyone! Read Badiou!@!

And let's get this straight--you just said that "abstraction is what makes you human", and ESSENTIALIST DOCTRINE, and you're trying to claim you're not a humanist?

This is getting super hilarious.

Communists call THEMSELVES humanists now. Althusser's project seems to have failed. Like so many communist projects do.

 

[nomadthethird]

How do I disagree with Althusser? Let me count the ways...

 

[josef k.]

 

[nomadthethird]

"Communism has been identical to fascism, in every historical incarnation of it so far." - Nomad

defend this!

delusional i say..

edit: i will put together a list of these at some point. amazing.

Let's count the ways it has been identical:

1) Fascists and communists have taken over governments by force, usually very violently

2) After seizing power, both fascists and communists cede power to a central authority figure--either one dictator, a central committee, or both

3) Both fascist and communist regimes quash all dissent from their citizens and both have maliciously slaughtered anyone who wouldn't fall in line

4) the political economy of fascism and communist regimes is indistinguishable, despite some minor rhetorical differences

 

[vimothy]

^^Dude looks like a melted candle.

 

[nomadthethird]

You know, Nikbee has provided really the perfect example of everything that's wrong with doctrinaire Badiouites...

They really, truly can't fit an ontological distinction in their tiny little heads between "difference" and "individuality"---two terms that have literally nothing to do with on another per se. They certainly don't in the political economy I ascribe to.

They see the world in broad brushstrokes of black and white. They can't see that there aren't just TWO choices--either you're a communist who doesn't believe in subjectivity, OR you're one of those icky people who acknowledges difference, which makes you an INDIVIDUALIST!! and a NEO-LIBERAL!!!

It's like talking to a Christian. Pointless. Stupid. But always hilarious.

 

[scottdisco]

I dunno, just everything I've read suggests that the reason the KMT made blunders & that the Communists were able to take advantage of them is cos the Communists were (as a military force) better organized, more dedicated, better lead, etc etc.

yeah the Communists, militarily, had good guerrilla tactics (they'd been using these against the Japanese earlier) that were better than the KMT's more conventional approach and - as you say - the blunders they made were real howlers; their mismanagement brought utter disaster to the people, hence why the Communists had popular support.

fascism doesn't start as an army...

Felix Guattari is very insightful about this.

true.
what Eden said earlier was bang on.

who decides which one is the fascist army, tho?

well, one of them can be fascist, and the other can be an army representing a betrayal of the communist ideal?

we'll put some blue berets in the middle, it'll be a right laugh.

Craner is the BNP man, i remember when he first told me about Griffin's Italian links, i was bowled over.
one of the commenters - an old anti-BNP hand - in a piece at Shiraz Socialist earlier this year or late last year (can't find it, but remember thrust) had a good point about how some of the new joiners - the protest voters, eccentric Tories and so on - to the BNP may well be unaware (edit: or, rather at least, not behind it, they were just a protest vote, after all, etc) about the central mission of the inner leadership, but this commenter laid it on the line, in persuasive detail, about an inner cabal that remained totally committed to their mission.
(phew! that was a long sentence. it's all gone a bit Saramago here.)

 

[josef k.]

http://www.borderlands.net.au/vol4no2_2005/illuminati_transl.htm

http://www.borderlands.net.au/vol4no2_2005/mcinerney_intro.htm

 

[josef k.]

 

[nomadthethird]

I would rather die at the hands of a monster than make myself into one.

I'm currraaazzzzeeeeee.