Metal Machine Music
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I don't think anyone is 100% pro-hip-hop in terms of being completely happy with the content of every hip-hop recording ever made.
There's nothing wrong at all with being critical of hip-hop. There are many ways to be critical of hip-hop and some of its excesses without making statements that minimize the importance of its weightier themes, or blaming it for the very phenomena it was created to bring out in the open and force into the popular consciousness. I would say hip-hop is an entire ethos of music making that's extended and branched out in all directions...it's actually a very politically-minded, "take it to the streets" sort of ethos that brings things in from the margins to the center.
I've never heard Kpunk say that hip-hop is responsible for socio-economic problems like violence and such--we all know he is too smart to make that kind of claim--but I have read the old "white people get off on black misery" shtick in various guises on his blog. Maybe there are people who identify with the music in a way that is obviously sort of ridiculous--like suburban white boys who think they're gansters--but these people do not have anything to do with the music as such. They are considered a joke far and wide.
petergunn said:
Best cover ever.
4 those of us not around then, was this a memrable episode in disensus? i cldnt find th thred
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
You should be able to find something, even if the mods erased that one or locked it, since there are hundreds of them.
Some of us (ahem) who have been reading this board for more than six months remember a lot of discussions like these.
mods don't erase posts or lock any of them unless things have got out of hand, or libelous on the whole. Also the steve reich madlib disbelief post doesn't exist..someone got it twisted, it happens.
k-punks idea roundly was that hiphop is the mainstream on the whole, as dinosaur as rock music was, overstuffed with cliches, thoroughly sexist, that sort of thing, i can't find his original post but it didn't have much to do with what it's being accused of here, and no-one was ever particulary in any agreement with him anyway, esp dave stelfox or luka.
here are some things i found he did say for what it's worth in a discussion on his site:
'No, Luke, I don't have any special antipathy towards rap in general, nor any problems with adrenalin/ buzz/ beligerence. It's just rap now I'm somewhat bored by.
PE --- no, it wasn't the aggression, it was the crap sound and the fact that, like most live rap I've seen, it seemed to just involve incoherent, blustering shouting into microphones. The show was just boring - whereas the PE records were finely-tuned, precise artifacts of sonic weaponry, the live show was like a dull thumping headache. It's like Kodwo said, rap isn't live music, it's recorded sound. De La Soul I've always found intensely irritating. Too fey!
'
Well, I'm not an expert on hip hop, particularly on more recent stuff, but it would certainly be unfair and grossly inaccurate to say that I don't like it as a genre. My favourite hip hop (here's a fairly random selection): very old skool like Bambaata and Grandmaster Flash obviously, lots of eighties stuff, Schooly D first LP, Skinny Boys 'Weightless', Mantronix 'Music Madness', PE obviously (especially first LP and 'Fear of a Black Planet'), BDP 'Criminal Minded', Eric B and Rakim 'Paid in Full'. Nineties: Method Man 'Tical', all the Wu that everyone likes, Bone Thugs 'n' Harmony, Gravediggaz, Dr Octagon, the early Timbaland/ Missy stuff. Outkast I've always liked, actually, since 'ATliens.' Also, some British hip hop: Gunshot, London Posse.
You're going to have to accept what I say at face value. I used to like it, but I'm just not interested enough to want to investigate it in much depth any more. I don't like live hip hop, I'll admit, but that comes from a sense of bitter disappointment after being bludgeoned into a state of boredom at many, many shows.'
k-punks idea roundly was that hiphop is the mainstream on the whole, as dinosaur as rock music was, overstuffed with cliches, thoroughly sexist, that sort of thing, i can't find his original post but it didn't have much to do with what it's being accused of here, and no-one was ever particulary in any agreement with him anyway, esp dave stelfox or luka.
here are some things i found he did say for what it's worth in a discussion on his site:
'No, Luke, I don't have any special antipathy towards rap in general, nor any problems with adrenalin/ buzz/ beligerence. It's just rap now I'm somewhat bored by.
PE --- no, it wasn't the aggression, it was the crap sound and the fact that, like most live rap I've seen, it seemed to just involve incoherent, blustering shouting into microphones. The show was just boring - whereas the PE records were finely-tuned, precise artifacts of sonic weaponry, the live show was like a dull thumping headache. It's like Kodwo said, rap isn't live music, it's recorded sound. De La Soul I've always found intensely irritating. Too fey!
'Well, I'm not an expert on hip hop, particularly on more recent stuff, but it would certainly be unfair and grossly inaccurate to say that I don't like it as a genre. My favourite hip hop (here's a fairly random selection): very old skool like Bambaata and Grandmaster Flash obviously, lots of eighties stuff, Schooly D first LP, Skinny Boys 'Weightless', Mantronix 'Music Madness', PE obviously (especially first LP and 'Fear of a Black Planet'), BDP 'Criminal Minded', Eric B and Rakim 'Paid in Full'. Nineties: Method Man 'Tical', all the Wu that everyone likes, Bone Thugs 'n' Harmony, Gravediggaz, Dr Octagon, the early Timbaland/ Missy stuff. Outkast I've always liked, actually, since 'ATliens.' Also, some British hip hop: Gunshot, London Posse.
You're going to have to accept what I say at face value. I used to like it, but I'm just not interested enough to want to investigate it in much depth any more. I don't like live hip hop, I'll admit, but that comes from a sense of bitter disappointment after being bludgeoned into a state of boredom at many, many shows.'
nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I really can't find that thread (mentioned on Waxidermy) either and I've searched for it using about 35 different terms.
I was talking about K-punk's blog more than what he's said here...he's made reference to the "minstrel" idea or something like it...
I do recall one discussion here though where he told me directly that he didn't like hip-hop because it was "sclerotic" and devoid of creative potential.
I mean, I dislike that way of thinking, too, the one that says nothing that isn't "new" and completely "original" can be good or interesting, especially when it comes to music, which has always been slow to innovate... it's getting faster all the time... the idea that there's nothing "new" out there just seems preposterous but especially when you're talking "urban" genres, which are the ones that have been the most eager to jump on the bandwagon of newer music-making technologies.
I was talking about K-punk's blog more than what he's said here...he's made reference to the "minstrel" idea or something like it...
I do recall one discussion here though where he told me directly that he didn't like hip-hop because it was "sclerotic" and devoid of creative potential.
I mean, I dislike that way of thinking, too, the one that says nothing that isn't "new" and completely "original" can be good or interesting, especially when it comes to music, which has always been slow to innovate... it's getting faster all the time... the idea that there's nothing "new" out there just seems preposterous but especially when you're talking "urban" genres, which are the ones that have been the most eager to jump on the bandwagon of newer music-making technologies.
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
The person on Waxidermy clearly flags "madlib" and "madvillain" as maybe, so that may be why it's hard to find. He seems to be fuzzy on which artist the thread was about.
If you search Reich and hip hop you get all kinds of threads though, too many to look through.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I've been lurking for a couple of yrs, if not all the way back to 2004 or (03?) when it began. anyway I never meant to endorse everything that anyone on Dissensus has ever said about hip hop. the main difference to me is the intent. I just don't think you can compare garbage, like that piece on grime of most of the articles you linked, to disagreements over opinions on hip hop given in good faith. I feel like you were/are conflating the two.
what really irked me, & I suspect others, wasn't your critiques, most if not all of which I agree with anyway, but this sense of "i'm the only one who really knows how it is & the rest of you are a bunch of clueless, possibly racist jerks". which maybe it wasn't your intent to express (or perhaps it was I dunno) but that's how it came across. though if that is your opinion you're of course welcome to it. the irony being that our views on hip hop & the media coverage it receives (& for that matter most of those underlying socioeconomic issues) are probably much more similar than not.
Trivia
* Come Out was Reich's first commercial recording on Columbia Records.
* Captain Beefheart quotes the composition in the lyrics of his song "Moonlight on Vermont" (from Trout Mask Replica).
* The quotation from Come Out is sampled at the beginning of the Madvillain song "America's Most Blunted".
* It also appears on the Unkle "Bruise Blood" remix of Tortoise's song "Djed."
not sure if the following is of any significance...
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=39478
i like the reich sample in little fluffy clouds
* Come Out was Reich's first commercial recording on Columbia Records.
* Captain Beefheart quotes the composition in the lyrics of his song "Moonlight on Vermont" (from Trout Mask Replica).
* The quotation from Come Out is sampled at the beginning of the Madvillain song "America's Most Blunted".
* It also appears on the Unkle "Bruise Blood" remix of Tortoise's song "Djed."
not sure if the following is of any significance...
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=39478
i like the reich sample in little fluffy clouds
the idea that hip hop isn't as responsible as it should be is pretty common in hip hop itself, but i think the oneness is on the quality of the mcing as much as anything else, see how endlessly g-unit get torn a new one by rappers queing up around the block, this is cos they're popular as hell but woefully underskilled. You don't really get the same with clipse, as clipse are fantastic mcees. There is a massive age gap occuring within hip hop though, soljah boy against any reputable mc over 30 who's career was built on mic skills for instance, rather than what would seem to alot of people esp with someone like 50 cent the celebration of conspicuous consumption sans talent, but a good backstory and lots of product endorsements, most significantly computer games.
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infact 50 cents a visual phenomenon inne?
its all about that bullet riddled finely tooled body, thats his selling point, thats what he sells through computer games - witness his first video - return from surgery of some sort at a secret lab in the desert
interesting as it implies two things, life saving surgery, or the kind of creation of a man-machine, or a frankenstein, course dre and the slim shady are watching proceedings.
He later went on to do a video game called 50 cent - bullet proof. He also endorsed george bush after katrina. He also launched a dietry supplement!
the rest of he video is all birds and bubbly though.
its all about that bullet riddled finely tooled body, thats his selling point, thats what he sells through computer games - witness his first video - return from surgery of some sort at a secret lab in the desert
interesting as it implies two things, life saving surgery, or the kind of creation of a man-machine, or a frankenstein, course dre and the slim shady are watching proceedings.
He later went on to do a video game called 50 cent - bullet proof. He also endorsed george bush after katrina. He also launched a dietry supplement!
the rest of he video is all birds and bubbly though.
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scottdisco
rip this joint please
no girls, no love, just 50
you see i don't think it's gangsta he's selling completely, it's hardbodies of mythic proportions, battle armour, big suv cars, computer game characters who are bullet proof, mineral enriched water and dieortry supplements, for the optimum american bulletproof body, he's like a rambo character for the gulf war 2, or surviving the battle torn streets of america, he's a reactionary character, 'more and more defence' funny to see him go against kanye west in that high profile face off, it's strange as his navigation of what hip hop is,seems a bit dated now, maybe it was always a bit of a stop gap, the petty wranglings of g unit vs whoever and who cares did always seem to be pretty unimportant.
still he did sue taco bell
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,290274,00.html
for creating an online game where you 'shoot the rapper' and win a prize, those damn insurgents...
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padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I'm not speaking from personal knowledge, having never cared about G-Unit, but they're meant to have built a large part of their reputation on street mixtapes prior to 50's mainstream success (the Clipse as well w/the We Got It 4 Cheap tapes though those came after Lord Willin'). anyway though does anyone really get "torn a new one" these days? the culture of battling has pretty much disappeared from rap (a big reason why grime was so appealing, still is what with the recent Wiley/Goodz craziness), the last big one I can think is Jay & Nas which was nearly a decade ago. sure people release dis records & have "beef", which usually comes off more like jr high school drama, but it's pretty inconceivable that someone could kickstart a career these days by going at a more established MC a la KRS-One & MC Shan. they'd just be labelled a hater. most hip hop is a massive circle jerk anyways - watch the VH1 Hip Hop Honors or 10 minutes of 106 & Park - though why shouldn't it be? to the victor go the spoils.
re: the age gap it was a little painful to see GZA get into a tangle w/Soujah Boy last year. not anything against SB, good on him for his success, I just wanted to be like GZA, why? what's the point? surely not only is his legacy intact but it could only be diminished by going after a 17 yr old kid making novelty pop music.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
yeah i've got some g unit mix tapes from ages back when i went new york and boy are they dull that's just personal taste i guess.
it's not really getting torn a new one is it, it's more like petty wrangling. interestingly there was an african mc who went against 50 cent when he came to his country, can't remember, but yeah the hater thing just shows you how complacent rappers are today,
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nomadthethird
more issues than Time mag
I don't really presume to know anyone's intentions, but then again, I don't believe good intentions and racism can't co-exist in one person, either.
Some journalists whose pieces I've read do seem like clueless jerks--e.g. the guy who wrote that review of Notorious for the Guardian--but that does not mean they are wittingly racist. I'm sure the Nirpal guy thinks he's completely above board in everything he says. That is the problem.
Here's the entire issue I have boiled down to the bare minimum in word count: given the frequency I hear this "hip-hop is full of fake representations of life in the ghetto meant primarily to entertain clueless white people" comment being made by British people, online, in the press, and elsewhere, I have begun to question whether there are serious cultural differences at work that make hip-hop lose something in the translation when it crosses the Atlantic. Whether someone like Biggie's music is 100% factually autobiographical is beside the point--even if he'd lived in Beverley Hills, his music speaks to something in American culture that is real, and expresses something that I think needed expressing badly at the time.
I'm not saying it's only British people who have expressed racist attitudes when it comes to hip-hop; many Americans have strange or hypocritical attitudes about hip-hop, but they usually don't or won't make the exact claim quoted above because they understand how it would be immediately tagged as offensive by other Americans. In fact, the only Americans I've heard say the exact same thing are strict conservative Christians, like Falwell.