"Owning"

[droid]

not everyone knows that he has been parodying old comics for years. there is nothing in this story which gives itself away as parody.

to anyone not familiar with the trajectory of his work, just picking it up, it is simply a period piece done in an old style.

How about you educate yourself a bit more before coming up with these ridiculous examples?

 

[zhao]

please give me your thoughts on the Australian Jackson 5 skit and Harry Conick Jr. Droid.

 

[reeltoreel]

That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

 

[baboon2004]

Er... its a pisstake, and an appallingly ironic example for Zhao to pick. Whoever wrote those notes is a cretin. Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him.

When you see someone re-enact a minstrel show as part of a drama, or parody 50's racism on TV does that make them a prick too?

But 'irony' is the way lots of people get around saying overtly fascist things in this day and age,by allegedly 'taking the piss' out of racists. "Oh, I'm doing it in a silly voice, so I didn't really say 'Paki'. In fact I was taking the piss out of racism " etc.

I have lots of experience of having to listen to this shit, and it's noxious bullshit. All part of this 'oh we're so post-racist' fuckery.

Is Alan Moore white, by any chance?? (I'm willing to swallow my words if I'm wrong, but) If so, has he even stopped to even think what someone who's not might think when reading his oh-so-ironic comic, and has actually, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, suffered those very same slurs?

You owe Zhao an apology for that.

"Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him." - point proven.

 

[droid]

OK, and then you can answer my questions.

There is no context for that piece. It was not part of a text, it was an isolated example. Was it even ironic?

That Australian talent show has not been involved in a decades long project parodying racist and offensive attitudes in Western comics culture. It is not well known for its pioneering work in challenging racism in its field.

Moore has come out quite clearly in stating his motives for this project, for example - the Black Dossier and the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen:

...We also found out that Frank Richards, the gambling addict who wrote the Billy Bunter schoolboy books, had gotten into an ill-advised public spat with George Orwell when Orwell had written a critique of the Billy Bunter books saying they were racist, imperialistic, treated all foreigners and minorities as figures of fun, and made all these other fairly accurate observations about the Billy Bunter books.

To which Richards ill-advisedly responded that Mr. Orwell was being terribly unfair about his harmless schoolboy frolics, and as for treating foreigners as figures of fun, well, they are. Which was not the best reply to make to someone like George Orwell. In The Black Dossier, we were able to comment upon all these things. And, sometimes The League will, although it's set in a fantasy world, making some point that actually seems quite relevant to the world we're in at present...

If you want to say that they are equivalent, good for you.

I suggest you pick better targets, because holding up the work of a queer anti-establishment hippie whose life work involves exposing social, cultural and historical stereotypes and contrasting 'reality' and the 'fictional' world of comics just makes it seem like you dont know what you're talking about.

 

[droid]

But 'irony' is the way lots of people get around saying overtly fascist things in this day and age,by allegedly 'taking the piss' out of racists. "Oh, I'm doing it in a silly voice, so I didn't really say 'Paki'. In fact I was taking the piss out of racism " etc.

I have lots of experience of having to listen to this shit, and it's noxious bullshit. All part of this 'oh we're so post-racist' fuckery.

Is Alan Moore white, by any chance?? (I'm willing to swallow my words if I'm wrong, but) If so, has he even stopped to even think what someone who's not might think when reading his oh-so-ironic comic, and has actually, IN THIS DAY AND AGE, suffered those very same slurs?

You owe Zhao an apology for that.

"Moore probably would have done it with a black character but I imagine the US publishers wouldn't let him." - point proven.

With all due respect Baboon, this is bullshit. I suggest you read the piece in question. Moore is not a closet racist using irony to disguise his bigotry. Please read my posts above.

Yes, Moore probably (and has) would have used a black character... all this may prove (supposition on my part) is that a US publisher might be more sensitive to racial issues concerning blacks. it may also just be Moore attempting to place this piece in a particular cultural space - knowing him its probably an exact parody (see Blyton illustration above).

 

[baboon2004]

Droid, what colour skin do you have? I ask only because this is deeply relevant here. If you are white (or black or any other race but East Asian, in fact), and telling someone of Chinese extraction they shouldn't be offended by reading that comic (why should anyone need to have red his entire oeuvre?), you're being quite offensive.

Queer anti-establishment hippies can still be ironic racists. Ffs.

 

[baboon2004]

With all due respect Baboon, this is bullshit. I suggest you read the piece in question. Moore is not a closet racist using irony to disguise his bigotry. Please read my posts above.

Yes, Moore probably (and has) would have used a black character... all this may prove (supposition on my part) is that a US publisher might be more sensitive to racial issues concerning blacks. it may also just be Moore attempting to place this piece in a particular cultural space - knowing him its probably an exact parody (see Blyton illustration above).

Ok, will read your posts, but you're wrong. Sorry. It's not a matter of reading the piece in question. It's a matter of people (of which I am one) telling other people, who have experienced racism of the type discussed here, what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Usually (and obv i don't know your racial background,so have no idea what it is in this situation) it's white people telling non-white people they shouldn't be offended 'because it's just ironic/a joke'.

If Zhao was offended, he has a right to be.

 

[droid]

That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

^^^ This.

Its almost as if Zhao came across those scans online and took them completely out of context.

Is that what happened here? I don't see how else these comparison could be made in all seriousness.

 

[droid]

Droid, what colour skin do you have? I ask only because this is deeply relevant here. If you are white (or black or any other race but East Asian, in fact), and telling someone of Chinese extraction they shouldn't be offended by reading that comic (why should anyone need to have red his entire oeuvre?), you're being quite offensive.

Queer anti-establishment hippies can still be ironic racists. Ffs.

Im not telling him he shouldnt be offended. He can offended by whatever he wants.

Im explaining the purpose of the work, what its about and what the history is. Zhao has taken it COMPLETELY out of context.

I could take any number of skits by black comedians and take them out of context and they would be offensive. I could take Chinese jokes about Chinese people and take them out of context and they could be deeply offensive.

 

[zhao]

How about you educate yourself a bit more before coming up with these ridiculous examples?

yes, please tell me more about how if i was more educated, and not quite so ignorant, that i would get the artistic irony.

and please tell me more about how my feelings are invalid as a person of color, white dude.

 

[droid]

Ok, will read your posts, but you're wrong. Sorry. It's not a matter of reading the piece in question. It's a matter of people (of which I am one) telling other people, who have experienced racism of the type discussed here, what they should and shouldn't be offended by. Usually (and obv i don't know your racial background,so have no idea what it is in this situation) it's white people telling non-white people they shouldn't be offended 'because it's just ironic/a joke'.

Jesus Christ. Thats not what is being said. Im saying that IT IS OFFENSIVE, and that is the whole purpose of it. For the love of god.

 

[droid]

yes, please tell me more about how if i was more educated, and not quite so ignorant, that i would get the artistic irony.

and please tell me more about how my feelings are invalid as a person of color, white dude.

Fuck you prick.

Please go back and tell the kids in school who used to call me CHINK that I'm only 1/8 asian.

 

[zhao]

1. i am not talking about Alan Moore's body of work since 1962, nor am i interested. i am looking at THIS PARTICULAR STORY, which is not even written by him.

That blackface skit wasn't ironic though, that's the thing.

Those guys were playing it pretty straight.

Less "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" a la Moore, and more "aren't black people funny? ha ha ha!" sort of thing...

Actually, that's what's really worrying.

nope.

2. "this is how we used to do things and it's shameful" -- this message is most CERTAINLY NOT apparent, or even exists at all, in the story.

3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"

 

[baboon2004]

Jesus Christ. Thats not what is being said. Im saying that IT IS OFFENSIVE, and that is the whole purpose of it. For the love of god.

But there's nothing clever/intelligent about what he's done. if the point is 'look how we used to be racists', then, as you've said yourself from your own experience, then that point is dangerous in itself, precisely because such offensiveness is there in the real, contemporary world, and it would be far more fruitful/artistic to expose THAT, as it is far more insidious and far more difficult to properly satirise than this more blatant, 'archaic' fascism. This is the easy, unhelpful option.

 

[zhao]

Fuck you prick.

Please go back and tell the kids in school who used to call me CHINK that I'm only 1/8 asian.

aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

 

[massrock]

3. to anyone who happens upon the story, the message they would get is "aren't Chinese people funny? ha ha ha!"

I think my reaction would be "gosh that's really unpleasant, surely it can't be for real?", even without knowing the context.

 

[Mr. Tea]

now now

Sorry, that was a gratuitously shit-stirring post. My bad.

 

[massrock]

Itself a huge slur on people with hyperthyroidism.
Speaking of which, how can people get away with saying such and such is a 'travesty', in this day and age?
I think it's time for cross dressers to get even crosser!

Fair points. Though in the case of 'cross dressers' it would be the word transvestite that's insulting, no?

 

[baboon2004]

aha. the last refuge of those trying to defend indefensible positions regarding racism: but, but i am fractionally non-white!

do you realize that is exactly the same thing as "i have black friends"?

that's not fair though - it's not the same thing, obv.