Cultural Cowardice

[blissblogger]

yeah i don't think any music or music-formation can cover all the bases, supply all the needs

there is always something missing, a lack or a blindspot, that a later music will make the centre of its thing

so is that dialectical? (i use the term a lot but my grip on it is shaky)

there's a kind of corrective mechanism, which lurches ahead, creating new errors - that then must be corrected by the next shift within music

but that correction becomes an over-compensation, an over-correction - like the markets

each strength brings with it its own weakness, an imbalance

and so everything keeps on rattling ahead

case study:

rock music in the mid-70s is eclectic, lots of hyphenated fusions of rock with this or with that, very loose and laidback and musicianly, you got Steve Winwood working with African musicians etc

what's missing is the singular focus and attack of rock, so that's what punk brings back (and appropriate attitudes etc) - a stiffening of music, and a severing from all that bluesy, raunchy swinging stuff

that then rapidly becomes its own dead end, so you get postpunk which is a return to electicism, hybridity, a new sort of fusion in a way, certainly a re-engagement with the black source(s), but more stringent and severe (the attitudinal continuity of punk) - and much less musicianly so it creates interesting failures and mutations

then postpunk's funk-admirers decide that they really just want to make black-sounding records with proper tight-yet-loose rhythm sections and good glossy production

but that leads to another dead end where the white bands have learned to play well but are just making black music manque - or not even below-par, actually good, but redundant, it's replicating what already abundantly exists

so then there's a shift (Smiths etc) to a whiter sound, a de-funked and de-technologizied rock

and so it goes on..

and that's just the sonic dialectic: there's dialectics of lyrics, of vocal modes, of politics, of gender, of ideas about performance and theatricality, of image / style

overlapping, criss-crossing, one line out of synch with another line

 

[blissblogger]

you even could say that a music or music-formation shows bravery in one sector, but cowardice in another

it's pushing ahead on one front, retreating on another

 

[sadmanbarty]

rap 1990-2013: cultural cowardice?

discuss.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

@blissblogger in re disco - I don't doubt your opinion is an informed one. and I respect your opinion. it also carries, for obvious reasons, critical weight.

but I disagree with your thesis, or even that your opinion is the basis for a thesis.

you're saying instrinsic artist worth and pop success are basically the same. It's a tautology - if disco is good, it's pop; if disco is pop, it's good.

(the general idea that some genres' organizing principles are closer/translate easier to pop than others, sure of course)

then you're handwaving everything that doesn't fit into that tautology as "yes the disco aesthetic has all the stuff".

the pop qualities and disco aesthetic stuff are inseparable parts of one thing.

so when you say "I like them more" - yes - when essentially you say "there are the best because I say so" - no. even if you're saying so in an informed way.

the point about Chic is that they don't exemplify all disco. they exemplify a certain pop culture conception of "disco". you're only interested in the latter, which is fine.

disco existed before "disco" and it existed after. disco is whatever records Levan, Gibbons, Siano, etc were playing at a given moment.

I'm not arguing against the wisdom of crowds - I'm suggesting that chart success etc doesn't automatically equal the wisdom of crowds

but ultimately I'm happy to just say we disagree and leave it that

I am generally skeptical of the idea that critical detachment makes an opinion any better (or worse) than those of people in the cult

who's to say - besides critics themselves - these various iterations of "syndrome" are worse (or better) than your own detached generalism

 

[sadmanbarty]

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

for the sake of clarity, I'm not a real disco freak

I do love disco, but really as ingredient/ancestor to something I am a true freak for - the anything goes world of early 80s club music

which is not a particular sound, more like an ethos - for shorthand I call it Paradise Garage etc but that includes Mudd Club, Danceteria, Fun House, as well as the Hacienda, Hardy @ Muzic Box, etc - not just the records but the spirit of playing the records in those places, a kind of extended "what do you call it" golden age of the interstitial period between the peak of disco and codifying into "house" - and then the inevitable splitting into narrower, more specific codified sounds - it's not unlike the brief golden united age of rave before all the individual sounds split apart, and just that like I'm sure there's plenty of mythology, sometimes retroactively into the sonic narrative

but united by the "disco aesthetic and all that stuff"

it's also like the 60s-70s situation where the earlier period gets most of the acclaim but actually almost everything really interesting came after

I see some interesting things have been said in that direction in re postpunk etc I will try to catch up on them

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

actually there are a good handful at least of fantastic disco-reggae, disco-dub tunes, barty

in fact to square the circle, one of the best ones is a loverly version of Don't Stop Til You Get Enough

another is a killer version of Ring My Bell by the awesomely named Blood Sisters

Soul Jazz put out a real solid comp of them a year or two ago

there's also some great weird creolized Caribbean disco records - steelpan, calypso, soca, zouk, you name it

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

one random thing I noticed skimming thru

Florida death metal was from Tampa, not Miami, which is a whole other thing

its other early stronghold was Sweden, which earlier in the 80s was the global capital of post-Discharge raw d-beat hardcore

not a Socal sun but definitely something about so much raw, brutal music coming from stable, high standard of living, homogenous (esp 30 years ago), social democracy

i.e. next door, extremity of Norwegian black metal was in no small part rebellion against placid Lutheran homogeneity

 

[blissblogger]

for the sake of clarity, I'm not a real disco freak

which is not a particular sound, more like an ethos - for shorthand I call it Paradise Garage etc but that includes Mudd Club, Danceteria, Fun House, as well as the Hacienda, Hardy @ Muzic Box, etc - not just the records but the spirit of playing the records in those places, a kind of extended "what do you call it" golden age of the interstitial period between the peak of disco and codifying into "house" - and then the inevitable splitting into narrower, more specific codified sounds - it's not unlike the brief golden united age of rave before all the individual sounds split apart, and just that like I'm sure there's plenty of mythology, sometimes retroactively into the sonic narrative

yeah i totally get where you are coming from

there is a romance and a sort of heroism to the scene that is more just the pure sonic contents of the records - it's the ethos, the community, it's what it stands for, who it represents

so in a certain way the records that didn't cross over - that remained the property of the subculture - have more of that aura, that spirit

cos disco / post-disco is more than just music (as is any music-based subculture of any value or interest), it's a way of life, it's got a relation to a population, perhaps to a place - a city or a specific club

the underground anthems carry more weight and pulsate with more meaning than things have were more widely circulated or tarnished by over playing, hearing them in supermarkets or weddings or whatever, on TV and mainstream radio

it's the "for those who know" effect - the intimacy of a tightly knit scene

nothing wrong with it, much right with it

yeah i prefer the postdisco Eighties stuff more than the disco-disco stuff - more interesting sounds, funkier, spacier - i was also aware of it more in real-time - had a dj friend who bought the imports, actually danced to things like "Funky sensation" and sharon redd and "this beat is mine" and France Joli etc

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

question - who are the cowards, in these retreats or proposed retreats?

on whose part are these things cowardice?

is it the culture at large? individual fans? the artists, producers, etc? the distribution networks? parts or all of the above?

if it's cultural cowardice, how is it cultural cowardice?

like if you want to talk about the wisdom of crowds, is the crowd - the massive, whatever - being cowardly? if so how, why?

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

what entity with agency is cowardice being charged to

 

[mistersloane]

or you could go to 80s rnb/boogie, early house imports. fatback, c abrams etc.

did anyone do this?

Human League went and got produced by Jam and Lewis, ABC were told by NYC producers that they were doing it better and didn't need US people, Scritti took the ball and ran with it, even having songs made by Chaka Khan and Al Jarreau.

 

[martin]

punk: cultural cowardice?

discuss.

Who were the bigger cowards? The bands or artists who signed to major labels, courted fame, did Radio 1 sessions for John Peel, changed their musical style to be slightly more accessible? The fanzine writers who ended up working for the NME?

Or the groups who'd refuse any contact with the BBC, put 'Pay No More Than 70p" on their 7" sleeves and live like hermits in squats, just because that's what most other punk bands were doing? A lot of people ended up embracing a conformity of non-conformity for sure.

 

[luka]

what entity with agency is cowardice being charged to

i've answered this question twice already in this thread.

 

[luka]

Human League went and got produced by Jam and Lewis, ABC were told by NYC producers that they were doing it better and didn't need US people, Scritti took the ball and ran with it, even having songs made by Chaka Khan and Al Jarreau.

the obvious question being was this a good thing? or was it a well-intentioned mistake like tricky working with gravediggaz or bjork with timbaland. great in theory but disappointing in practice.

 

[luka]

i've answered this question twice already in this thread.

but thrid time's a charm i guess.

the notion is predicated on the idea of cultures and subcultures having an agency and an intelligence of their own. larger groupings than the individual. cowardice here can be characterised as a shirking of the growth imperative in favour of the known quantity or comfort zone. the form gets hollowed out and becomes husk.

Albion (Blake)
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Blake's image of Albion from his A Large Book of Designs

In the complex mythology of William Blake, Albion is the primeval man whose fall and division results in the Four Zoas: Urizen, Tharmas, Luvah/Orc and Urthona/Los. The name derives from the ancient and mythological name of Britain, Albion.

 

[luka]

The objective of Gestalt therapy is to enable the client to become more fully and creatively alive and to become free from the blocks and unfinished business that may diminish satisfaction, fulfillment, and growth, and to experiment with new ways of being

 

[luka]

yeah i don't think any music or music-formation can cover all the bases, supply all the needs

there is always something missing, a lack or a blindspot, that a later music will make the centre of its thing

so is that dialectical? (i use the term a lot but my grip on it is shaky)

there's a kind of corrective mechanism, which lurches ahead, creating new errors - that then must be corrected by the next shift within music

but that correction becomes an over-compensation, an over-correction - like the markets

each strength brings with it its own weakness, an imbalance

and so everything keeps on rattling ahead

case study:

rock music in the mid-70s is eclectic, lots of hyphenated fusions of rock with this or with that, very loose and laidback and musicianly, you got Steve Winwood working with African musicians etc

what's missing is the singular focus and attack of rock, so that's what punk brings back (and appropriate attitudes etc) - a stiffening of music, and a severing from all that bluesy, raunchy swinging stuff

that then rapidly becomes its own dead end, so you get postpunk which is a return to electicism, hybridity, a new sort of fusion in a way, certainly a re-engagement with the black source(s), but more stringent and severe (the attitudinal continuity of punk) - and much less musicianly so it creates interesting failures and mutations

then postpunk's funk-admirers decide that they really just want to make black-sounding records with proper tight-yet-loose rhythm sections and good glossy production

but that leads to another dead end where the white bands have learned to play well but are just making black music manque - or not even below-par, actually good, but redundant, it's replicating what already abundantly exists

so then there's a shift (Smiths etc) to a whiter sound, a de-funked and de-technologizied rock

and so it goes on..

and that's just the sonic dialectic: there's dialectics of lyrics, of vocal modes, of politics, of gender, of ideas about performance and theatricality, of image / style

overlapping, criss-crossing, one line out of synch with another line

so this is a good post and is true-ish in terms of what has happened up to now.

but the rules are changing. the scattered tribes are reconverging and reconvening. the internet might prove to be a new tower of babel and we might be scattered to winds again before it touches heaven but for now we are still building.

whe'eres the work to be done? what is the growing edge? what are the great tasks for the artist in the present moment?

 

[sadmanbarty]

rap 1990-2013: cultural cowardice?

discuss.

yes. there seemed not even to be a cultural appetite to map out frontiers.

compared to the uk over the same period and it's stark. dancehall and, starting around 1998, rnb were also braver.

there was however one single exception to this:

 

[sadmanbarty]

oi 3rdform, this threads built for you, you're always banging on about music not going far enough. let us know when the spunk ritual's over, so you can proselytise for the sonic revolution.