Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
padraig (u.s.) said:
Not really, no. Or, it depends what is meant by "military power". It's definitely possible Hamas leadership was looking at the inevitable response as an opportunity to show it's stepped up to the level of Hezbollah, i.e. can fight the IDF to a draw in prepared positions on its own ground, but that remains to be seen. And even with Hezbollah, the big caveats are the normal unwillingness of Israel to take serious casualties and international (and possibly domestic) pressure imposing military limits on the IDF, all of which may not apply now.

The initial attack was terrorism writ large, not an attempt to challenge the IDF. Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah is a serious military threat to Israel. They are rather security threats, which is a different thing.
Click to expand...
OK, sure, it's still "just" terrorism, but terrorism on a scale approaching that of something that a state military might achieve, no? The death toll of their initial assault is equal to the better part of all killings by the Provisional IRA in three decades.

I think you said yourself (apologies if it wasn't you, but someone said it) that even the Hamas leadership might have been caught off-guard by the success of the attack.

Agreed, of course, that it doesn't put them at the same level as the IDF, or anything close to it.
 
chava

chava

Well-known member
Mr. Tea said:
OK, sure, it's still "just" terrorism, but terrorism on a scale approaching that of something that a state military might achieve, no? The death toll of their initial assault is equal to the better part of all killings by the Provisional IRA in three decades.

I think you said yourself (apologies if it wasn't you, but someone said it) that even the Hamas leadership might have been caught off-guard by the success of the attack.

Agreed, of course, that it doesn't put them at the same level as the IDF, or anything close to it.
Click to expand...
It was an impressive attack, absolutely. We all agree on that.
 
V

version

Well-known member
They're heavily bombing southern Gaza now, despite telling people to move south.

www.reuters.com

Southern Gaza in Israel's sights as world leaders seek pause in fighting

Israel's military intensified its bombing of southern Gaza overnight after one of the deadliest days for Palestinians since the conflict began, amid international calls for a pause in fighting to let aid into the enclave and prevent many more deaths.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com

Health officials in Gaza said on Wednesday that dozens more people had been killed in the south, where hundreds of thousands fled after Israel warned them it would attack the north in its bid to wipe out Hamas militants who mounted a killing spree in Israel on Oct. 7.

One strike brought down several apartment buildings in Khan Younis. "This is something not normal, we have not heard something like this before," resident Khader Abu Odah said.

Palestinian anger over the killings has been increased by a sense of betrayal as many of those who obeyed the order to move south are also being killed. The Israeli military says that Hamas, which rules Gaza, has entrenched itself among the civilian population everywhere.
Click to expand...

Regarding that last point, I guess they're just going to bomb the whole place and everyone in it then? Seems like the justification of a force gone mad with paranoia.
 
maxi

maxi

Well-known member
I think all the facts and details are important, but stuff like this just makes the the hospital debate look like a farce

Apparently one of the hospitals Israel attacked since October 7 includes the Al-Ahli Arab, days before the eventual explosion (I believe this is mentioned by Finkelstein citing WHO in that video on the previous page but I haven't found the source myself)
 
maxi

maxi

Well-known member
mixed_biscuits said:
Trojan Horse style, I like it. Interesting comment on the article:

View attachment 16471
Click to expand...
moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'

IDF state terror has killed more than four times as many civilians as Hamas did by now, so I expect the commenter is also calling for an immediate mass public revolt from Israelis to oust the Netanyahu government?
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
maxi said:
moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'

IDF state terror has killed more than four times as many civilians as Hamas did by now, so I expect the commenter is also calling for an immediate mass public revolt from Israelis to oust the Netanyahu government?
Click to expand...
Sounds like we've got a deal.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
thinking about this situation, I keep going back to 9/11, and I think there's a significant parallel. due to the scale and the nature of the atrocities committed on October 7th, israel had this amazing (for israeli strategy) moment of moral legitimacy which it could have used to build some kind of institutional basis for a response. but instead of doing this it has managed to squander--in a matter of days--that legitimacy to the point where it's almost as if October 7th is a footnote to the atrocities it has committed in response, with the effect of turning global public opinion largely against it.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
vimothy said:
thinking about this situation, I keep going back to 9/11, and I think there's a significant parallel. due to the scale and the nature of the atrocities committed on October 7th, israel had this amazing (for israeli strategy) moment of moral legitimacy which it could have used to build some kind of institutional basis for a response. but instead of doing this it has managed to squander--in a matter of days--that legitimacy to the point where it's almost as if October 7th is a footnote to the atrocities it has committed in response, with the effect of turning global public opinion largely against it.
Click to expand...
Quite, but what should it have done instead?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
that was basically the playbook of the Bush admin. instead of using the tragedy of 9/11 to pull the international community together, it went on the rampage in a way that alienated most of its peers
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
vimothy said:
that was basically the playbook of the Bush admin. instead of using the tragedy of 9/11 to pull the international community together, it went on the rampage in a way that alienated most of its peers
Click to expand...
Aye but what concretely would be an overall effective (ie. Hamas-eliminating and innocents-sparing) response? Would it even be possible?
 
V

version

Well-known member
maxi said:
moving to oust hamas in between desperately fleeing from place to place to avoid death? 'put aside any attempts to collect enough water to feed your children today, it's time to organise a mass protest'
Click to expand...
www.theonion.com

Dying Gazans Criticized For Not Using Last Words To Condemn Hamas

GAZA CITY, GAZA—The complicity of each and every Palestinian in the violent actions of their militant ruling authority was reportedly on full display Friday morning when dying Gazans received justified criticism for not using their last words to condemn Hamas. For example, instead of issuing a...
www.theonion.com www.theonion.com
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
firstly, not
mixed_biscuits said:
Aye but what concretely would be an overall effective (ie. Hamas-eliminating and innocents-sparing) response? Would it even be possible?
Click to expand...
firstly, not overreacting and bombing the gaza strip to smithereens, killing huge numbers of innocent civilians. that would *maintain* israeli legitimacy.
secondly, moving through or creating international institutions in response. that would *extend* israeli legitimacy.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
vimothy said:
firstly, not overreacting and bombing the gaza strip to smithereens, killing huge numbers of innocent civilians. that would *maintain* israeli legitimacy.
secondly, moving through or creating international institutions in response. that would *extend* israeli legitimacy.
Click to expand...
How does that prevent further Hamas attacks in the immediate future?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
because it delegitimises hamas in the eyes of the Palestinians, and in the eyes of everyone else. how does current Israeli strategy prevent further attacks from hamas? it doesnt. even the israeli govt recognises that the goal of destroying hamas is quixotic. all it's doing is feeding the beast and creating more hatred on all sides.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Tea said:
Or rather, even more against it than it was already.
Click to expand...
right, but october 7th could have reset the dial to a huge extent. instead of taking advantage israel has reverted to what everyone thought was their type. they blundered and gave away pieces for no material gain.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top