why does what i say frustrate and anger you? because subjects such as racism are cliche to you, and you don't like it when they are talked about? or because you think people on dissensus are immune from world views shaped by neo-colonialist attitudes and i point out otherwise?
vinyl purists: you are boring. please stop.
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why does what i say frustrate and anger you? because subjects such as racism are cliche to you, and you don't like it when they are talked about? or because you think people on dissensus are immune from world views shaped by neo-colonialist attitudes and i point out otherwise?
Droid said that ideas put forth by Martin Bernal in his Black Athena volumes are "commonly accepted" by most people in Europe. Which to me is a glaring distortion of reality. and in the argument which ensued, his stance was to deny the obvious (to me) fact that 19th century Euro-centric ideologies still shape much of the modern world.
You and others refusing to see that a statement such as "Detroit Techno was largely inspired by Euro-Synth" (a direct quote, not a "misquote") places unjust emphasis on European "inspiration", and proposes that Europeans, and not African Americans from Detroit, were the primary source of this music.
no i don't totally agree with corpseys quote, thanks for reiterating that you've finally directly quoted it but if you look back over the thread, but i don't agree with your idea that :
'the impulse to SHAKE your booty did not come from Japanese Keyboard manufacturers, and it did not come from the precision engineering of the Swiss.
it came from the abject POVERTY of the ghettos, it came from poor black people finding hope where there is no hope, it came from jazz, it came from gospel, it came from the pissed on and the forgotten: the African American experience.
am i an unlikely spokesperson for this? maybe. but the truth is the truth, and i pity those misguided souls who have been led astray from it.'
thats your quote
no one proposed that europeans created detroit techno we know african americans in detroit created detroit techno, thats not been an issue, but its also known that among other things, they listened to european synth stuff, ie check some of the wizard mixes, wbmx mixes, electrifying mojos reputation, the sample of yazoo's 'situation' in nude photo etc, carl craigs samples of duran duran and liasons dangereuse etc, that's not an issue to most people.
i wouldn't say house and techno are largely inspired there are lots of reasons why those things occured but i've already gone thru em and its boring to reopen this, when it was so difficult for you to understand where i was coming from the first time around given that you took the extreme position as unlikely spokesperson for the people of the ghetto on this message board.
ever thought of doing say a documentary of series of interviews with techno artists on this subject?
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droid
Guest
No offense Zhao, but fuck off trying to drag me into this by misrepresenting the arguments I made on another topic. That thread was about 10 pages in before I posted, I was far from your most vocal opponent and I basically just queried your methodology...
If you have something to add to the Black Athena thread do so.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Erm, it was proposing that African Americans from Detroit were 'largely inspired by' europeans. That African Americans in detroit were the primary source but they (ie the Belleville trio) were partying to a lot of euro-synth at the time.
i have talked to Buzz Goree of UR a bit about it. he feels much the way i do. that in todays world people seem to think Techno is a White European thing, and not an African American thing.
and when i do make it to DEMF one of these days that's a great idea to do some interviews maybe a short film...
damn thanks for reminding me need to watch that High Tech Soul documentary been sitting on my hard drive for months... will report back with any relevant quotes.
there are different ways to read that comment. from where i'm standing, it was skewed toward Eurocentrism.
Droid, sorry, but examples were asked for, and since you were the last person i engaged with in that topic, your name readily came up.
its alright i've seen hi tech soul thnx.
Yeah, sorry, I'm kinda new here. I'm inclined to agree with this now:
Anyway, even if this was about the subject "vinyl purists" I shouldn't have jumped in, I've done that to death over the last decade (working for Serato). Meh. Back to the music.
I also feel stupid for getting dragged into this but a few things....
@zhao
The UR crew and Mike Banks especially are racists with an axe to grind. If you want me to go into that further i will.
The whole thing of techno being birthed from the "pissed on" etc, is way too over simplified. Its a nice idea but its the sort of thing people would believe if they didn't listen to early detroit music much or they had a political agenda that they wanted to back up.
I'd be careful about taking things people say about jazz and blues and then crowbarring techno into that same set of circumstances. If you listen to Juan Atkins talk about this, or heaven forbid, actually listen to some early detroit techno, the gospel, blues and jazz influences are very light compared to Synth Pop, funk (which i find the hardest to pick up on) and Industrial music. As the years go on, the jazz and gospel (more with chords and progressions than anything explicit like happened in house music) become clearer, because the template sucked into lots and lots of stuff in, as you would expect.
Another point, if this was the PURE music of the oppressed and marginalised, why was it greeted with large indifference by that community? Compare it with hiphop/rap for example, which is definitly more communal in its content/appeal/uptake.
House music, much more fits into the criteria for what you were saying anyway.
If your going to bizarrely self-appoint yourself as the spokesman for the marginalised, maybe you should start there or at hiphop?
Add to that, the music that was happening in Europe (esp. Italo) and other parts of America at the same time that had a similar feel plus the availability of cheap hardware. Where you may have a point is that the state of detroit at the time was a factor. Really bleak, industrial, rundown etc. All of which you can hear Juan Atkins talk about in numerous interviews, videos etc.
Concentrating on any one of those factors over the other is just wrong and the people who do that are most likely motivated by another agenda.
No European i've ever met has called Dusseldorf the home of techno. Nobody worth listening to says that or thinks that in the slightest. Its too extreme. Would you like it if people did say that so you could wheel out your argument?
Plenty of Europeans and Americans I've met have trotted out the "pissed on" argument. I also find that too extreme.
I suppose the only thing that connects the two topics in this thread anymore is that they are both examples where you've gotten stuck on the semantics of a sentence and used it to push a personal agenda, without much consideration for what people were actually trying to say. Its an odd way to interact with people.
@zhao
The UR crew and Mike Banks especially are racists with an axe to grind. If you want me to go into that further i will.
The whole thing of techno being birthed from the "pissed on" etc, is way too over simplified. Its a nice idea but its the sort of thing people would believe if they didn't listen to early detroit music much or they had a political agenda that they wanted to back up.
I'd be careful about taking things people say about jazz and blues and then crowbarring techno into that same set of circumstances. If you listen to Juan Atkins talk about this, or heaven forbid, actually listen to some early detroit techno, the gospel, blues and jazz influences are very light compared to Synth Pop, funk (which i find the hardest to pick up on) and Industrial music. As the years go on, the jazz and gospel (more with chords and progressions than anything explicit like happened in house music) become clearer, because the template sucked into lots and lots of stuff in, as you would expect.
Another point, if this was the PURE music of the oppressed and marginalised, why was it greeted with large indifference by that community? Compare it with hiphop/rap for example, which is definitly more communal in its content/appeal/uptake.
House music, much more fits into the criteria for what you were saying anyway.
If your going to bizarrely self-appoint yourself as the spokesman for the marginalised, maybe you should start there or at hiphop?
Add to that, the music that was happening in Europe (esp. Italo) and other parts of America at the same time that had a similar feel plus the availability of cheap hardware. Where you may have a point is that the state of detroit at the time was a factor. Really bleak, industrial, rundown etc. All of which you can hear Juan Atkins talk about in numerous interviews, videos etc.
Concentrating on any one of those factors over the other is just wrong and the people who do that are most likely motivated by another agenda.
No European i've ever met has called Dusseldorf the home of techno. Nobody worth listening to says that or thinks that in the slightest. Its too extreme. Would you like it if people did say that so you could wheel out your argument?
Plenty of Europeans and Americans I've met have trotted out the "pissed on" argument. I also find that too extreme.
I suppose the only thing that connects the two topics in this thread anymore is that they are both examples where you've gotten stuck on the semantics of a sentence and used it to push a personal agenda, without much consideration for what people were actually trying to say. Its an odd way to interact with people.
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
Please do, I've never heard a racist comment from Mike or any of the UR crew.
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
I think you've got hold of the wrong end of the stick Zhao!
I really don't care what he mixed it with or on, I just wish it had been more interesting. Anyone who wants my couple just PM me.
I really don't care what he mixed it with or on, I just wish it had been more interesting. Anyone who wants my couple just PM me.
some of what papercuts saying make sense. thanks.
see i think this is a worthwhile and good discussion. you guys think i'm "inventing straw men", i don't think so. but out of the disagreements good points are being made.
i make the following joke light heartedly:
WHITE PEOPLE FIND MENTION OF RACISM BORING SHOCKER!
(not exactly racism more eurocentric attitudes whatever)
no worries, it's natural. and to be expected:
again no worries i ain't mad. i go through the same thing with my girl ALL THE TIME. its a difference of perspective, and perceptual habits and sensitivities which have to do with upbringing.
why just the other day we were watching this movie and... i digress.
see i think this is a worthwhile and good discussion. you guys think i'm "inventing straw men", i don't think so. but out of the disagreements good points are being made.
i make the following joke light heartedly:
WHITE PEOPLE FIND MENTION OF RACISM BORING SHOCKER!
(not exactly racism more eurocentric attitudes whatever)
no worries, it's natural. and to be expected:
again no worries i ain't mad. i go through the same thing with my girl ALL THE TIME. its a difference of perspective, and perceptual habits and sensitivities which have to do with upbringing.
why just the other day we were watching this movie and... i digress.
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droid
Guest
As Zhao's spokesperson Id just like to say that he admits he's full of shit and that he wants to sincerely apologise to Dissensus for his silly threads.
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