vinyl purists: you are boring. please stop.

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mms

sometimes
from this page: http://www.dissensus.com//showthread.php?9773-House-09!/page6&highlight=house

you were wrong that time.

you are wrong this time, as the people who think Ableton mixing is fake have stepped up and voiced their opinions -- no i did not make them up.

just like all the other times you have been willfully ignorant of the very real and concrete issues i have brought up.


that's corpsey who said that not me, surely you knoe that cos you quoted him saying it?
i didn't say it, so how can i be wrong when it's not something i've said or ever agreed with?

that's not very good evidence if someone else is saying it!

who has actually said ableton mixing is 'fake' too?

the only concrete you've got is between yr ears it seems.

these aren't real issues they're utterly trivial things you get on yr high horse about!

you really are a very silly fellow.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
exactly, as no one actually ever said that ever.

Again it was something you invented in order to rant off against a false opposition, as anyone who pays a cursory glance over a good number of your posts will realise is something of a trait of yours.

Wasn't Detroit techno largely inspired by European synth pop/kraftwerk?

mms, you were wrong about me inventing a "false opposition" in order to attack it that time, and you are wrong about me constructing a strawman in order to attack it this time. because these "strawmen" are made of real life conceits and misconceptions: Detroit Techno having come from "Euro-synth", and Ableton mixing being "fake".
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Zhao, you come of (to me anyways) as having a big chip on your shoulder about other people thinking what you do is fake / not real / etc. Why are you so worried about other people think about your craft and choice of tools? If you find them good and suffiicient for your dj'ing, why the hell do you care so much about other peoples opinions and reasons that obviously boil down to personal preference and aren't right or wrong in any objective sense.

Alfons, i am quite happy with what i do, how i do it, and the small amount of success it is receiving. I am not in the least worried about what other people think.

The Importance of Being Honest


the question of "honesty" as applied to artistic endeavor, as i have said before, is not only real, but an important one. no it is most certainly not all subjective.

there is a Christian Marclay sculpture, in which audio tape is constantly in the process of dropping from the ceiling from a tape recorder, like a waterfall, accompanied by the sound of water falling. it is quite beautiful, but the fact that the sound of the piece did not come from the actual movement of the objects you see was a let down. because it diminishes the integrity of the work, is destructive of what would have been a natural elegance which arise from the process, and takes away from the experience. the natural hissing noise made by the tape would have been much more Honest.

tapefall.jpg


so in art making, there are things that are generally ill advised. "hiding", "pretending", and "betraying context" are a few of them.

in a Tara Donovan sculpture consisting of a large cube of toothpicks, no glue was used: the toothpicks clump together naturally. knowing this is very important to the work; and if somehow it was discovered that glue was actually used, or worse that there is a wooden structure below the surface, it would drastically reduce the power and significance of the piece.

tara_donovan_9.jpg



another few examples: showing pure graffiti in a gallery is categorically a bad idea because it belongs in the street, and its recontextualization not only adds nothing, but destroys the purpose of the work. similarly, lip syncing on stage, as practiced by pop stars, is not cool.

who cares you say? not the general public, but those who are invested in art, art making, and art experiences do.

of course there are exceptions:

if your project is about illusion, theater, etc, then hiding is of course OK. (cover photography for Vogue arguably is about theater and ideal beauty, so air-brushing is OK).

if your work is about disingenuousness or make-believe, the act of making something which pretends to be something else becomes a part of it. (most Hollywood films are about these things so using a painted sunset backdrop makes sense)

so i am calling bullshit on the "if you can't do it on stage don't put it on a CD" attitude. because, to state my position again: a studio recording is a studio recording. a live performance is a live performance. and the process of their making should stay true to their respective context of creation and ultimate function.

there is room for debate along the lines of what is the function of a recorded DJ mix -- but remember i do not have a problem with Martyn using turntables; it is he who said using Ableton to make perfect studio mixes is "dishonest", which to me is a false interpretation of what Honesty means (and again, he did not preface it with a statement of personal preference or project specificity, so it can only be assumed that he means it generally)

is dance music art? i think it can be but perhaps in most cases not exactly. but neither is industrial design -- i believe all creative work should be accountable to this kind of criteria, this kind of questioning.

do most people think these things are important? no. but i most certainly do. and if you are still reading this, it probably is at least a little to you too.
 
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Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
but remember i do not have a problem with Martyn using turntables; it is he who said using Ableton to make perfect studio mixes is "dishonest",

We already cleared up that he most likely meant it would be dishonest for him right? As in, he wanted to make it sound as similar as possible to the way he performs live. Someone has already pointed this out. So this thread is no longer an attack on what Martyn said, but on what you thought Martyn said, as projected upon some invisible opponents who don't (at least to me, anyway) seem exist on this board.

That's probably why people are accusing you of setting up straw men. You clearly have a bone to pick, but no one can really figure out who it is with.
 
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Papercut

cut to the bone
Re: detroit influences up thread.

But detroit techno was heavily influenced by european synth music, among other things.

Moodyman less so because he makes house music, which is more heavily influenced by funk and disco.

The lines have gotten more blurrey over the years but they were distinct enough things at the offset. Funnily, a lot of the arguments i hear for and against this are based more around cultural ownership of the ideas. "This music wouldn't exist without Detroit" "Detroit wouldn't exist with European music" etc. That too is a very boring arguement that rages on and on......

...which provides a perfect segue to the ableton thing.

I think it will probably take a while for people to respect the ableton thing because, and in this respect its different from the electric guitar or other technological leaps that were initally met with hostility, examples of it being pushed to the max or the technology enabling the artist to make or express something new do seem to a bit light on the ground.

Lots of technology works or is exciting because it means it will spring up new sounds or genres or ways of doing things that haven't been done before or better ways of doing things that have been done before. However, this technological advance is probably more revolutionary towards the individual and making them able to do things they haven't been able to before. So if you like music and would like to play it for people but you can't because you can't dj, can't afford turntables, don't have a record collection, then with an internet connection and about ten minutes practice you can be a dj.

Like i said, i'd love if people were using the technology in really unqiue ways and then, just like the electric guitar it would be accpeted on equal terms without question. And, yes, the music is the most important thing and getting into too many arguements about format is slightly missing the point, but not by much.
 

dave

the day today tonight
Hey Zhao, I like reading a lot of what you say, and agree with a lot of it, but this doesn't make sense at all:

(and again, he did not preface it with a statement of personal preference or project specificity, so it can only be assumed that he means it generally)

You're saying:

Either A or B. (it either has to be personal or general)
Neither A nor B. (he doesn't specify personally or generally)
Therefore B. (generally, of course).
 

zhao

there are no accidents
Re: detroit influences up thread.

But detroit techno was heavily influenced by european synth music, among other things.

the original quote was "largely inspired by", which is quite different from "heavily influenced". because "largely" means "predominantly", or "more than anything else"; and "inspired by" constructs a seminal or causal relationship.

which makes the statement entirely in line with the long history of privileged imitators taking credit and receiving recognition for what they take from disadvantaged originators.

look at how much Derrick May is paid versus how much many other Johnny Come Latelys are paid. i just saw a poster last week with Paul Kalkbrenner, the star of that Berlin Calling movie, huge on top, and Kevin Saunderson (i think it was) way down below, in smaller type.

"This music wouldn't exist without Detroit" "Detroit wouldn't exist with European music" etc. That too is a very boring arguement that rages on and on......

the later of the 2 "wouldn't exist" statements is false, or mostly false. I'm open to properly engage in the Cultural Origins of Techno debate if you like, but you might not ;)

if you like music and would like to play it for people but you can't because you can't dj, can't afford turntables, don't have a record collection, then with an internet connection and about ten minutes practice you can be a dj.

and this elevates the game to another, higher, playing field. it becomes less about "who spent 10 years practicing beat matching in they bedroom", and more about "who has the knowledge, vision, imagination, and balls to use it".

Like i said, i'd love if people were using the technology in really unqiue ways and then, just like the electric guitar it would be accpeted on equal terms without question.

well in the beginning Bobby Dylan was just playing his acoustic tunes a bit louder than before, nothing more. and then there were people who used subtle, sometimes barely noticeable electric distortions around the edges of their finger picking, like that one Tacoma Records guy... shit what is his name... anyway it took a while for Kevin Shields to enter the picture -- but all 3 approaches to the electric guitar i would say are valid.

yes, the music is the most important thing and getting into too many arguements about format is slightly missing the point, but not by much.

i agree. but then again Mcluhan...
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
this doesn't make sense at all:

You're saying:

Either A or B. (it either has to be personal or general)
Neither A nor B. (he doesn't specify personally or generally)
Therefore B. (generally, of course).

your logic might be sound in another, perhaps scientific, context, but i'm not sure if it is in this one. consider the following:

if someone said: "apples are sour". and did not specify that "apples are sour in the spring, in Malaysia", or "apples are sour to me because i have unusual taste buds", everyone would agree that this is either a false statement or one that is only partially, sometimes true.
 
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mms

sometimes
Zhao you're a nice guy but it does seem like you start threads, like this in order to stir up nothing but you're own sense of courage in victimhood sometimes, boost your me against the world mentality, which gets a bit testing for everyone else, who are 'against you', when they're not really they're just trying to work out what it is thats going on.
Also this is a forum, it amounts to words read and responded to by a few people, maybe it would be more positive to take your ideas an words into an arena where they can be developed and tested?

If you go to the aids thread where you posited loads of your ideas, very positive ideas, and very hopeful ideas, you cite a video you found on the internet as evidence to back them up when they didn't back them up, they were interesting ideas, and you were kind of evangelical for them, as if they were true, when they were your ideas, that weren't even backed up by the evidence from someone else you cited to back them up. You do this sort of thing alot, it's doesn't come across as a display of intense emotion and strong beliefs, it's comes across as a display of vanity.
I'm sure it's not done with any harm as you are a nice fellow, but it doesn't add up, maybe if you have some strong convictions it would be a good idea to build them and test them outside a forum, where there seems to be a regular pattern to what happens when you do put your ideas forward.
 
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zhao

there are no accidents
zhao you're a troll basically, but one thats doesn't have the self awareness to know it.
If you go to the aids thread where you posited loads of your ideas, citing a video you found on the internet as evidence to back them up when they didn't back them up, they were interesting ideas, but you were kind of evangelical for them, as if they were true, when they were ideas, that weren't even backed up by the evidence you cited to back them up. You do this sort of thing alot, it's doesn't come across as a display of intense emotion and strong beliefs, it's comes across as a display of vanity. I'm sure it's not done with any harm as you are a nice fellow, but it doesn't add up.

and you, once again, as expected, resorts to feeble character assassination attempts instead of engaging in the debate in an honest fashion. because you realize that either your capacity for constructing logical arguments is lacking, do not have the ability to articulate your point in a convincing manner, or simply don't really have an argument or point worth making.

(no point other than "i don't like you because you make me feel inadequate")
 
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mms

sometimes
and you, once again, as expected, resorts to feeble character assassination attempts instead of engaging in the debate in an honest fashion. because you realize that either your capacity for constructing logical arguments is lacking, do not have the ability to articulate your point in a convincing manner, or simply don't really have an argument or point worth making.

(no point other than "i don't like you because you make me feel inadequate")

you don't make me feel inadequate, i'm trying to explain to you how you're just a bit of a pain in the ass when i come on this forum, and my capacity for logic isn't lacking, and it wasn't a character assasination. I changed what i wrote to be more constructive about you, before you posted your response, but your response does again back up what i've remarked about you sadly. I'm trying to make you see others points of view, which makes me think you're pretty hopeless and to be honest your nonsense behaviour at dissensus is one of the reasons i don't come here much anymore.
 
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Numbers

Well-known member
so i'm a bit the opposite of martyn. i feel like people might be expecting hear something closer to my studio mixes, not some shoddy turntable job. but i hate that frenetic, chop-cause-you-can approach that people end up doing with ableton because they think they need to to justify their medium.

Just curious: did you do some new studio mixes recently? I still put on your blogariddim once in a while. Great stuff.
 

tom lea

Well-known member
This is the most boring thread i've seen in a very long time, get over it
i dunno man, i think it's pretty funny.

best bit so far was zhao telling marcus he makes him feel inadequate. willies on the table lads.
 

Papercut

cut to the bone
the original quote was "largely inspired by", which is quite different from "heavily influenced". because "largely" means "predominantly", or "more than anything else"; and "inspired by" constructs a seminal or causal relationship.

which makes the statement entirely in line with the long history of privileged imitators taking credit and receiving recognition for what they take from disadvantaged originators.

Ok, i think i understand your point now. Yeah, the idea that is was almost "solely inspired by" european synth music would be wrong, but i'm sure nobody could have said that. Artist by artist, or track by track there is probably different levels of influence from synth pop and funk. But, then, i struggle to hear the funk/disco influence sometimes in early detroit techno.

If you had to put a percentage on it, where would you think the balance is at? just to help me understand your argument a little more.

As for the disadvantage originators vs privileged imitators, yes its a well-known pattern that occurs but in this update theres a slightly happier ending because these people got paid. They're pretty astute people and the understand the industry.


look at how much Derrick May is paid versus how much many other Johnny Come Latelys are paid. i just saw a poster last week with Paul Kalkbrenner, the star of that Berlin Calling movie, huge on top, and Kevin Saunderson (i think it was) way down below, in smaller type.

As for that, i would say that there is a certain reverence at play when your still getting lots and lots of gigs despite not doing anything relevant for over a decade. Also, i'd be surprised if Saunderson didn't get paid as much for the gig with Kalkbrenner (overrated music, rubbish liveset) How music is promoted on a flyer isn't always indicitive of the amount people get paid.


the later of the 2 "wouldn't exist" statements is false, or mostly false. I'm open to properly engage in the Cultural Origins of Techno debate if you like, but you might not ;)
Yeah, the origins of techno debate. Thank you for your kind offer by i must refuse. I really love techno and house and i've been around them, in various ways, for the majority of my life, but i've been falling out of love with them a bit over the last few years for various reasons. So any interaction i have with them will be soley positive if i can help it.


and this elevates the game to another, higher, playing field. it becomes less about "who spent 10 years practicing beat matching in they bedroom", and more about "who has the knowledge, vision, imagination, and balls to use it".

Yes, which is great but.... where is it happening? Where are all these visionary, ballsy ableton sets? I still think, as a tool, its revolution is towards the user and not towards the listener. Which is exciting if your the user i suppose, but so are vanity projects.

well in the beginning Bobby Dylan was just playing his acoustic tunes a bit louder than before, nothing more. and then there were people who used subtle, sometimes barely noticeable electric distortions around the edges of their finger picking, like that one Tacoma Records guy... shit what is his name... anyway it took a while for Kevin Shields to enter the picture -- but all 3 approaches to the electric guitar i would say are valid.

John Fahey maybe?


i agree. but then again Mcluhan...
please, no, leave him out of this.
 
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