The Matrix vs Ghostbusters

V

version

Well-known member
It's not just about the lines themselves, it's about the thought of that being the conversation taking place in the Showgirls scene.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
suspended said:
Yes, but essentializing groups as "idiotic," or just broadly "bad"/"good" isn't.

People didn't act like Trump voters should be "treated as individuals." There was no interest on the left as to why, contextually, an individual made a decision to vote for Trump. The mere fact that liberals/lefties view Trump as racist, and that a buncha people voted for him anyway, makes that buncha people all racist by extension. I know dozens of incredibly smart young-to-middle-aged lefty-liberals who think this including my parents and several staff editors at major NYC culture publications; it's probably the default coastal Democrat position.

And yet, when someone like Biden or Clinton, who has done their own share of shitty things, comes up, well—these same lefty-liberals are choosing "the lesser evil," making a pragmatic decision. It's not that they support drone strikes in the Middle East.

But it's this exact same, transitive or syllogistic essentializing going on: Y supports Z, X supports Y, so X supports Z. Guess what, politicians and policies are "bundles," they don't stand for or advocate a single position! The liberals go, Well, I had a good reason for supporting my candidate, but they were clearly a racist, that's the only possible reason someone would vote for Trump. (Nevermind he was more isolationist—a single-policy isolationist voter should have voted for Trump over Clinton, and if you estimate that Trump spared us even a single conflict in the Middle East, that might have been a vote to spare hundreds of thousands of civilian lives. So who's looking like the piece of shit now?)

People have lots of priorities, they're balancing tough optimization problems with many constraints, many interests to balance. But essentialization strips all those individual contexts, variations, motivations, values, beliefs, and just makes them all "idiot Trump racists."

Whatever, man.
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Well yeah, I *kind of* agree with you here. I'm sure some non-racist people voted for Trump, as well as some people who are somewhat racist but no more racist than the average white Democratic voter (and yes, even a - very small - minority of black voters). And obviously dismissing them all as "deplorables" was a ghastly mistake on the part of Hillary Clinton (and many liberals/leftists/the Dems in general).

However, it's pretty clear that a sizeable proportion of Trump voters - I don't want to name a figure, so let's leave it at "sizeable" - are racist as fuck. I mean he openly courted the support of the far right, in a way that (AFAIK) is unique in modern American politics.

Also it's total horseshit that Trump "spared us conflicts in the Middle East", as he in fact drastically extended the programme of drone strikes beyond even the level it had reached under Obama, as well as removing any sort of oversight on civilian casualties. Plus he all but declared war on Iran by wiping out their top general, and spent a lot of time getting visibly excited by the prospect of using nuclear weapons. How so many people who should know better have fallen for this "Trump the Peacemaker" nonsense is frankly bizarre.
 
sus

sus

Moderator
@Clinamenic I think you'd really like Farscape actually. I'd recommend starting with the pilot then (in order) Exodus from Genesis, I, E.T., Throne for a Loss, PK Tech Girl, DNA Mad Scientist, They've Got A Secret, Jeremiah Crichton, A Human Reaction, Nerve pts 1 + 2, Bone to Be Wild, and Family Ties.

It's a show all about science, and technology, and the ethical responsibilities therein. It's a show about being a warrior, and being a diplomat, and being a scientist, and how these personality types interact, and how individuals cast in one mold can grow to be more. About how each has blindspots and biases, which the other perspectives check. How by bringing parts of each perspective, each type's set of priorities and approaches, into oneself, one can become better, more whole.

It's a show about purity, and breeding, and race, othering and difference, what it means to be "alien." It's a show about obsession, perfect, and questing. It's perhaps the great science-fiction work of our time.
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
version said:
It's not just about the lines themselves, it's about the thought of that being the conversation taking place in the Showgirls scene.
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but the lines are hilarious. specially the (which is bio-mechanoid) in brackets. thats so good!
 
luka

luka

Well-known member
theres a perfection, a necessity, to the pairing of Gus and Berkley, Craner and Pinhead. you really can't go wrong. that pic, any quote=profound beauty
 
sus

sus

Moderator
Mr. Tea said:
However, it's pretty clear that a sizeable proportion of Trump voters - I don't want to name a figure, so let's leave it at "sizeable" - are racist as fuck. I mean he openly courted the support of the far right, in a way that (AFAIK) is unique in modern American politics.
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Clear on what grounds? Did you poll them?

You're basing this entire opinion on liberal media's interpretation of Trump's campaign tactics. That's literally it. People have gone over what Trump said in public speeches/appearances, and it's pretty standard political fare for both the left & right, pre-2010ish. Nor were they followed up on.
There was no large-scale state-sponsored violence against minorities during the Trump presidency. Trump’s race-related policies were similar to those of other recent Republican presidents. The three most-discussed Trump supporter hate crimes all turned out to be hoaxes (1, 2, 3, I swear I’m not trying to cherry-pick, these really were the most discussed incidents at the time). There was no huge spike in hate crimes during the Trump presidency, just fluctuations of about the same scale as during previous years. The much-reported-upon study showing that Trump rallies increased local hate crimes was reanalyzed and found to be wrong; adjusting for population correctly showed they did not increase hate crimes at all. Trump lost support among white voters, and gained support among voters of color at an unprecedented rate among Republicans. The KKK and Richard Spencer did not play a major role in the Trump administration, and the media stopped covering them in favor of new, less-racialized pro-Trump groups like QAnon.
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During Trump's presidency, I noticed two comments that people frequently held up as evidence for his explicit racism or pro-Nazi views.

In practice, the main post-election comment everyone holds up as Trump Explicitly Saying Nazis Are Good was his post-Charlottesville comment, where he said that there were "good people on both sides" of a protest that included alt-right figures. What actually happened: Trump said that "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry, and violence." Later he said of the protesters that "You had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides". When asked to clarify he said "I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."
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V

version

Well-known member
lib.png
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
suspended said:
Clear on what grounds? Did you poll them?

You're basing this entire opinion on liberal media's interpretation of Trump's campaign tactics. That's literally it. People have gone over what Trump said in public speeches/appearances, and it's pretty standard political fare for both the left & right, pre-2010ish. Nor were they followed up on.
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Is it "the liberal media's interpretation" that Trump spoke, at great length, about banning people from "shithole" Muslim countries from entering the US, and building a wall to keep out all the Mexican rapists, drug dealers and murderers, at these endless rallies where tens of thousands of almost exclusively white folks lapped it up? That was invented by CNN and the NYT, was it?
 
sus

sus

Moderator
Mr. Tea said:
Also it's total horseshit that Trump "spared us conflicts in the Middle East", as he in fact drastically extended the programme of drone strikes beyond even the level it had reached under Obama, as well as removing any sort of oversight on civilian casualties. Plus he all but declared war on Iran by wiping out their top general, and spent a lot of time getting visibly excited by the prospect of using nuclear weapons. How so many people who should know better have fallen for this "Trump the Peacemaker" nonsense is frankly bizarre.
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Factually, Trump is one of only three US Presidents in the last 70 years who didn't start an international conflict, and one of those 3 was Nixon. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but Trump did run on an openly isolationist platform, and it isn't crazy to think that Clinton, a renowned warhawk, would've started something.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
And if some of it "wasn't followed up on", that's largely because his entire administration was characterized by chaos and incompetence, most of it stemming directly from him.
 
Clinamenic

Clinamenic

Binary & Tweed
suspended said:
The great tragedy of being a living being is that one must consume other living beings to survive.
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Yeah it seems the alternative may be strictly speaking possible, just infeasible. Synthesizing nutrients from baser non-organically originating molecules just seems too complex and far too expensive for the foreseeable future.
 
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