The Erosion of Dissent

[Clinamenic]

I think liberalism seeing itself as "being on the right side of history" means it has to view any dissent as immoral and these days that's synonymous with being right wing, so all dissent gets lumped in with that.

Yeah I agree. Most of my family members probably think voting for Trump makes someone a bad person who is to be avoided, and whose character is more or less irredeemable.

 

[version]

I have a low opinion of voting for Trump. My point is more the assumption that anyone dissenting would vote for Trump.

 

[Clinamenic]

I have a low opinion of voting for Trump. My point is more the assumption that anyone dissenting would vote for Trump.

I don't like the sort of attitude he arouses in people, and I'm under the impression his motives are still opportunistic, but seemingly unlike most liberals, I can get along with moderate Trump supporters. One of my best friends from college is still a Trump supporter, and was even a sincere fan of Info Wars, and yet it doesn't get in the way of us getting along. I just see it largely as the result of his cultural and familial circumstances, which can be difficult to transcend.

 

[Clinamenic]

I have a low opinion of voting for Trump. My point is more the assumption that anyone dissenting would vote for Trump.

And also, this can turn out to be self-fulfilling prophecy, it seems. That is, as Trump gains more appeal to dissenters.

 

[Clinamenic]

I also think there is a more or less apolitical, and almost universal, aversion to being integrated into a system. The libertarian ideology is just an intensity of this aversion, perhaps, but I do think everyone has their threshold. And we seem, as a global society, to be hurdling toward the critical mass in terms of the population's collective threshold.

 

[Clinamenic]

I think this is what may culminate in the anti-tech movement, when/if it gains mainstream traction.

 

[Clinamenic]

I also think there is a more or less apolitical, and almost universal, aversion to being integrated into a system. The libertarian ideology is just an intensity of this aversion, perhaps, but I do think everyone has their threshold. And we seem, as a global society, to be hurdling toward the critical mass in terms of the population's collective threshold.

Largely being driven by technological growth economics, which ought to strike fear in the heart of the anti-tech movement because of how sound and actionable a theory it seems.

 

[version]

I don't like the sort of attitude he arouses in people, and I'm under the impression his motives are still opportunistic, but seemingly unlike most liberals, I can get along with moderate Trump supporters. One of my best friends from college is still a Trump supporter, and was even a sincere fan of Info Wars, and yet it doesn't get in the way of us getting along. I just see it largely as the result of his cultural and familial circumstances, which can be difficult to transcend.

I can get along with people, but I'll still think their views are horrible if they bring them up. I just sort of forget about them when they aren't being actively discussed, e.g. if I'm talking to a Tory about football or whatever and we're getting along, I'm not going to be constantly thinking about them being a Tory unless they come out with something that reminds me.

 

[Clinamenic]

i was trying to get at some related thing with that thread about the end of resistance. why people like barty and stan and gus all think everything is great and think any foot dragging is childish

I think critique is one thing, but locking oneself into their own miserablism, on purely abstract grounds (rather than external stressors like sickness or persecution), I think is simply not pragmatic.

 

[Clinamenic]

I can get along with people, but I'll still think their views are horrible if they bring them up. I just sort of forget about them when they aren't being actively discussed, e.g. if I'm talking to a Tory about football or whatever and we're getting along, I'm not going to be constantly thinking about them being a Tory unless they come out with something that reminds me.

Yeah and I think thats something many of our fellow liberals can't seem to manage to do.

 

[Clinamenic]

I think critique is one thing, but locking oneself into their own miserablism, on purely abstract grounds (rather than external stressors like sickness or persecution), I think is simply not pragmatic.

I think Mark's capitalist realism, as a critque-turned-neurosis, is a prime example of this. Theory unbound, chiefly at the detriment of one's own mental health. As it happens, it also seemed to be a zeitgeist matter, seeing as his work resonates with so many people during our time..

 

[version]

Yeah and I think thats something many of our fellow liberals can't seem to manage to do.

I think it's the default mode for most people tbh.

 

[version]

I also think there is a more or less apolitical, and almost universal, aversion to being integrated into a system.

Do you reject the D&G thing of "men fighting for their servitude" then?

 

[Clinamenic]

I think it's the default mode for most people tbh.

Yeah I assume its somewhat symmetrical over the party line, but I've spent far less time trafficking through conservative cultures.

Seems to be, at least partially, a result of the psychic synchronization (psychronization?) that we are experience with social media and instant information delivery. Laughing at the same things simultaneously across the world, being provoked by the same viral triggers, etc.

 

[Clinamenic]

Do you reject the D&G thing of "men fighting for their servitude" then?

Not sure what they mean by that. That people unconsciously seek the kind of order that is afforded by having someone control them?

 

[luka]

I think critique is one thing, but locking oneself into their own miserablism, on purely abstract grounds (rather than external stressors like sickness or persecution), I think is simply not pragmatic.

yeah this is obviously something that needs to be looked at more closely and critically

 

[luka]

 

[Clinamenic]

yeah this is obviously something that needs to be looked at more closely and critically

Well the alternative of just affirming everything is just as bad, it seems. What constantly gets me making this mistake is the line of reasoning behind that famous Bucky Fuller quote, that in order to fix a system you need to advance it in a way that makes the current model obsolete.

Taking a proper dialectical approach ought to involve ample critique, but it does make me prone to just accepting things and then immediately sublimating my critique into possible, abstract future permutations of the system, often while remaining complicit with the existing one.

 

[version]

I think Mark's capitalist realism, as a critque-turned-neurosis, is a prime example of this. Theory unbound, chiefly at the detriment of one's own mental health. As it happens, it also seemed to be a zeitgeist matter, seeing as his work resonates with so many people during our time..

I can't find it atm, but I read something the other day about Baudrillard pulling back from the simulation stuff for a while because he said it was making him ill.

 

[luka]

these are all things that are more complicated and involved than you want them to be.