The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere

malelesbian

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
version said:
I rest my case.
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Which is what exactly? That I'm scatter-brained? Ok. So are Butler and Zizek. They're still great thinkers, just like me. =D
The fact that I find internet debates hard to follow does no damage to my view.
Seems like you're once again making a superficial point about presentation, then drawing some false conclusion about my substantive argument. Only sophists argue about style and semantics.


You still have no response to the arguments put forward in my last post. I mean, you really tried to claim I'm an essentialist with out argument. See why you shouldn't make baseless assumptions without evidence?
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
forget being a great thinker, you are ontologically confused. you want to infiltrate the manosphere, but It's like trying to teach a cat to bark—it might sound interesting in theory, but in reality, you're just setting yourself up for an orrery of errors. It's akin to wearing a vegan T-shirt to a barbecue competition and expecting to be crowned the grill master.

The problem is you want to be straight and male without taking on the responsibility for being straight and male. So you've invalidated your own perspective. The queer agenda has plunged you into an existential crisis, which you cannot recover from. if you want to be straight and a feminine man, you need to take responsibility for upholding the patriarchy, the homosexuals are right about this at least, you are either mystified by biological reproduction or you aren't.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
@malelesbian Can I ask what actual evidence you have for capital(ism) being inherently masculine? Because as far as I can see, women are just as good at earning, investing, saving and spending money as men are.

And pointing to any historical tendency of men to dominate capitalism won't do, because that's true of nearly everything, including trade unions, socialist parties, and revolutionary communist movements.
 
ghost

ghost

Well-known member
it doesn't take a great grip on dialectics to understand that the reproduction of capital and the reproduction of the family are at some odds, and that capital tends to lean towards the former—making capitalism the driving force behind substantive equality over the last hundred-odd years.
 
mixed_biscuits

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
malelesbian said:
I don't think it does. Plenty of women are attracted to male femininity. Why else would they explicitly ask men to act more feminine, e.g. sensitive, etc.
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That's only because they've been fem-pilled; they're saying what their Sunday supplement tells them they should say.
 
0bleak

0bleak

Well-known member
Do you think that men and boys, especially those that have really struggled in one way or another, are going to be inspired to come around to seeing things the way you see them especially now that words and terms like toxic, patriarchy, privileged, fragile masculinity etc. are so extremely common?
Besides also like in my case, experiencing hatred directed at them from strangers because people are regularly being told about the so many negative things about men?
I kind feel like I'm beeing told that I've got this irredeemable original sin that I will always have to work on and apologize for.
I've had enough of being told everything that is wrong with me and how I fail as a person without all of that also piled on top.
 
0bleak

0bleak

Well-known member
I mean, leave my nvld out of it for now, and just talking about my adhd:
Researchers have estimated that, by the age of 10, kids with ADHD receive 20,000 more negative messages and critiques than their peers without ADHD. 20,000 more negative comments. Over the course of 10 years, that’s more than 5 negative comments PER DAY MORE than their peers. And if you think about the fact that ADHD symptoms generally get more noticeable when kids begin school, and shorten that time frame to 5 or 6 years that they’re in school before age 10, we’re talking about at least 9 more negative comments PER DAY. That’s huge! Now, on top of that, thinking about the fact that kids with ADHD have a harder time with emotion regulation, these comments will hit them even harder than their peers.
Besides that, there is also the negative commentary from my nvld and the co-morbidities like anxiety and major depression, but now you also see regular negative commentary about your gender (besides the fact that you can be sure that the elevated gender contains just as many people that have made negative comments about you as people from the scum-of-the-earth gender).
 
malelesbian

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
thirdform said:
forget being a great thinker, you are ontologically confused. you want to infiltrate the manosphere, but It's like trying to teach a cat to bark
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Nice essentialist rhetoric. And my goal was to provide an alternative to the manosphere, not infiltrate it.
thirdform said:
It's akin to wearing a vegan T-shirt to a barbecue competition and expecting to be crowned the grill master.
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More essentialist talk.

thirdform said:
if you want to be straight and a feminine man, you need to take responsibility for upholding the patriarchy, the homosexuals are right about this at least,
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Right and I say I've done that, I've given you many ways by which I do this, and you ignored them. What do you recommend I do to take responsibility for upholding the patriarchy? Because you clearly do nothing.

thirdform said:
you are either mystified by biological reproduction or you aren't.
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What does biological reproduction have to do with anything?

Mr. Tea said:
@malelesbian Can I ask what actual evidence you have for capital(ism) being inherently masculine? Because as far as I can see, women are just as good at earning, investing, saving and spending money as men are.
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Again, you're confused. Masculine people =/= men. Self interest drives capitalism. That's all the evidence I need. Of course, plenty of women are good capitalists and in so doing, they act masculine.

ghost said:
it doesn't take a great grip on dialectics to understand that the reproduction of capital and the reproduction of the family are at some odds, and that capital tends to lean towards the former—making capitalism the driving force behind substantive equality over the last hundred-odd years.
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Right, capitalism pushes for equality between MEN AND WOMEN, not between masculine and feminine people. Capitalism pushes everyone to be equal to act masculine and pursue their self-interest.
 
malelesbian

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
0bleak said:
Do you think that men and boys, especially those that have really struggled in one way or another, are going to be inspired to come around to seeing things the way you see them especially now that words and terms like toxic, patriarchy, privileged, fragile masculinity etc. are so extremely common?
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Yes, if they properly understand feminism.
0bleak said:
Besides also like in my case, experiencing hatred directed at them from strangers because people are regularly being told about the so many negative things about men?
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I don't think feminists hate individual men, I think they hate the patriarchy.

0bleak said:
I kind feel like I'm beeing told that I've got this irredeemable original sin that I will always have to work on and apologize for.
I've had enough of being told everything that is wrong with me and how I fail as a person without all of that also piled on top.
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Respectfully though, as men, are our feelings as important as the concrete social issue affecting women?
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
malelesbian said:
Nice essentialist rhetoric. And my goal was to provide an alternative to the manosphere, not infiltrate it.

More essentialist talk.



Right and I say I've done that, I've given you many ways by which I do this, and you ignored them. What do you recommend I do to take responsibility for upholding the patriarchy? Because you clearly do nothing.


What does biological reproduction have to do with anything?



Again, you're confused. Masculine people =/= men. Self interest drives capitalism. That's all the evidence I need. Of course, plenty of women are good capitalists and in so doing, they act masculine.



Right, capitalism pushes for equality between MEN AND WOMEN, not between masculine and feminine people. Capitalism pushes everyone to be equal to act masculine and pursue their self-interest.
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So, yet again, you've divorced the terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' from actual men and actual women to the point where they're just totally arbitrary signifiers, haven't you? You might just as well say 'selfish' and 'cooperative', or even 'bad' and 'good', and stop pretending it has anything to do with sex/gender at all.
 
malelesbian

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Mr. Tea said:
So, yet again, you've divorced the terms 'masculine' and 'feminine' from actual men and actual women to the point where they're just totally arbitrary signifiers,
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Again, not arbitrary. Do the research and you'll see that the widespread consensus in feminism today is that masculine behavior is self-interested and feminine behavior helps other people.

Mr. Tea said:
You might just as well say 'selfish' and 'cooperative',
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Correct.

Mr. Tea said:
even 'bad' and 'good', and
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I have repeatedly argued that there are good and bad masculine qualities and good and bad feminine qualities.

Mr. Tea said:
stop pretending it has anything to do with sex/gender at all.
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It certainly has nothing to do with sex. And yes, as I've already said, I distinguish masculinity and femininity from genders such as men and women. Again, masculinity and femininity are cultural imaginaries, NOT genders.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
If women are just as liable as men to exhibit "masculine behaviours" and vice-versa, then the terms are meaningless, no?
 
0bleak

0bleak

Well-known member
malelesbian said:
Yes, if they properly understand feminism.
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Do people in the feminist movement understand "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" (I know that's not a technically scientifically correct phrase, but I'm guessing you know what I mean)
malelesbian said:
I don't think feminists hate individual men, I think they hate the patriarchy.
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It kind of sounds like you don't believe my personal experience. Or, like, that thing I posted about some time back about how on some weekend update thing on SNL they started off a joke talking about how the death gap between men and women has increased with men continuing to die earlier and earlier, and the audience loudly cheered!
malelesbian said:
Respectfully though, as men, are our feelings as important as the concrete social issue affecting women?
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The framing of men and masculinity in a negative light is fine then?
I mean, the social justice movement continually talks about the harm of microaggressions, but people can't see how this kind of framing is also harmful?
Are there not also already concrete social issues affecting me and some other men besides all of this? But it doesn't matter all of the additional negative framing is fine?
What do you think it does to people's mental health especially if they already have a lot of problems?
Is it ok if some men are sacrificed for the cause feminist movement- I've actually seen people say that.
 
malelesbian

malelesbian

Femboyism IS feminism.
Mr. Tea said:
If women are just as liable as men to exhibit "masculine behaviours" and vice-versa, then the terms are meaningless, no?
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No. Traditional society only accepts men as normal traditional, mainstream men if they act feminine and it only accepts feminine women as tradwomen. Gender non-conformists, like femboys, are marginalized. Almost all women are socialized to act feminine, and traditional society assumes that all men desire feminine women and tradwomen desire masculine men. So there's a connection between feminine culture and women, it's just not as strong as you previously thought.

0bleak said:
Do people in the feminist movement understand "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"
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Yes. I agree with you though that more feminists should use this more friendly strategy.

0bleak said:
It kind of sounds like you don't believe my personal experience. Or, like, that thing I posted about some time back about how on some weekend update thing on SNL they started off a joke talking about how the death gap between men and women has increased with men continuing to die earlier and earlier, and the audience loudly cheered!
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That's comedy dude. That's not an argument or acceptable evidence to support one..

0bleak said:
The framing of men and masculinity in a negative light is fine then?
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No, just we should just view the negative aspects of masculinity in a negative light. Hasn't society already depicted masculinity in a positvve light for thousands of years?

0bleak said:
I mean, the social justice movement continually talks about the harm of microaggressions, but people can't see how this kind of framing is also harmful?
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Decent point.
0bleak said:
Are there not also already concrete social issues affecting me and some other men besides all of this?
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Of course. But those issue aren't always the same as the issues resultant from toxic masculinity.
0bleak said:
But it doesn't matter all of the additional negative framing is fine?
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The men suffering from the issues you just described are often not the patriarchs framed in such a negative way.

I think you're assuming feminists are talking about you because they over generalize. But you overgeneralize about women. The point is to understand that feminists aren't talking about you as long as you support feminism.

0bleak said:
What do you think it does to people's mental health especially if they already have a lot of problems?
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IDK, ask a psychologist.
0bleak said:
Is it ok if some men are sacrificed for the cause feminist movement- I've actually seen people say that.
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IDK what you mean by "sacrifice"
 
T

thirdform

pass the sick bucket
malelesbian said:
Right and I say I've done that, I've given you many ways by which I do this, and you ignored them. What do you recommend I do to take responsibility for upholding the patriarchy? Because you clearly do nothing.
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What I do or don't do is absolutely irrelevant given hat I don't call myself a male lesbian, and don't engage in a justification of Blanchard's Autogynephilic fantasies, something you clearly do. You want to be treated as feminin, yet you also want to identify as heterosexual with its corresponding family structures, ignoring that (to some degree) the two are at odds. Heterosexuality isn't the mere attraction to women is it now. For a scholar such as yourself, it's ridiculous that you are incapable of seeing this. It seems like you want patriarchy without patriarchs, otherwise you wouldn't use the self-contradictory term male lesbian, which is just as demeaning as shemale.

malelesbian said:
What does biological reproduction have to do with anything?
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Then why are you straight?

Why not just call yourself queer? Why are you so obsessed with defining yourself as hetero? Hetero is masculine and about the biological reproduction of the family, that's the point! You are contributing to the abstruction of a new era for the second sex.
 
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