The Feminine Perspective against the Manosphere

[version]

Selfishness and masculinity are two different things. You're just jumbling stuff together into a useless binary where everything's aligned with either the masculine or the feminine. I'm surprised you haven't invoked "The Divine Feminine" yet.

 

[version]

Plus feminists face massive widespread backlash to this day,

That's because some of their ideas have been successfully integrated into mainstream society. This recent "manosphere" phenomenon is a bunch of men flailing around in response to feminism's successes.

 

[malelesbian]

Selfishness and masculinity are two different things. You're just jumbling stuff together into a useless binary where everything's aligned with either the masculine or the feminine. I'm surprised you haven't invoked "The Divine Feminine" yet.

Okay, then give your own definition of masculinity.

 

[malelesbian]

That's because some of their ideas have been successfully integrated into mainstream society. This recent "manosphere" phenomenon is a bunch of men flailing around in response to feminism's successes.

I wonder why then, you've spent more time criticizing feminism than you have the manosphere?

 

[version]

Okay, then give your own definition of masculinity.

I don't have a particular definition of it. I just think picking a load of things you don't like about western society and arbitrarily designating them 'masculine' is ridiculous.

 

[version]

I wonder why then, you've spent more time criticizing feminism than you have the manosphere?

I haven't been criticising feminism, I've been criticising your version of it.

 

[malelesbian]

I don't have a particular definition of it. I just think picking a load of things you don't like about western society and arbitrarily designating them 'masculine' is ridiculous.

It's far from arbitrary. My definition has a long history in feminist literature which you know nothing about. Indeed, since you have no alternative, it's not clear to me that there's any other available definition for femininity. So you have no argument. You can't deny that femininity exists, but you literally don't understand what it is and I do. What can you possibly say about femininity when you don't even understand what it means to act feminine?

Criticizing the patriarchy has always been part of feminism and there's no denying that patriarchal culture is masculine culture. Also, I'm not "picking a load of things" I dislike about western society, in fact I'm focused mostly just on one, namely, selfishness.

I haven't been criticising feminism, I've been criticising your version of it.

Right, but I don't see why you don't criticize the manosphere instead WHEN THAT'S THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS TOPIC.

 

[yyaldrin]

femininity is wearing a crop top

 

[malelesbian]

femininity is wearing a crop top

I already pointed out that it isn't, sorry.

 

[version]

It's far from arbitrary. My definition has a long history in feminist literature which you know nothing about. Indeed, since you have no alternative, it's not clear to me that there's any other available definition for femininity. So you have no argument. You can't deny that femininity exists, but you literally don't understand what it is and I do. Thus what can you possibly say about femininity?

I'm not denying femininity exists, I'm disputing your refracting of everything through the lens of gender. Also, given you've claimed women aren't a monolith and you've read such a wealth of feminist literature, you should be aware of other available definitions of femininity from within feminism itself.

Right, but I don't see why you don't criticize the manosphere instead WHEN THAT'S THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS TOPIC.

I did, I said it's a bunch of men flailing around in response to feminism's successes. Is there that much more to say about it? They're unable, or unwilling, to adapt to the new environment which doesn't value masculinity above all and are instead opting to lash out at women on the way down.

 

[malelesbian]

I'm not denying femininity exists, I'm disputing your refracting of everything through the lens of gender.

But again, I've repeatedly admitted that non-gendered or gender-neutral behavior exists. It's just not relevant to my discussion. I never said you denied femininity exists. I said you don't understand the meaning of gender.

Also, given you've claimed women aren't a monolith and you've read such a wealth of feminist literature, you should be aware of other available definitions of femininity from within feminism itself.

That's the thing. There aren't any other definitions that you or I know about. You can't just assume that alternatives exist when you don't know about them. You read the literature and see if you can find an alternative, then we'll discuss it. Until then, you've no argument. Put it this way, what do you do to empower femininity? What do you contribute to feminine culture? I know what I do!

And yes feminine people aren't a monolith. That's why most feminists agree that there are many different ways to act feminine. But that doesn't change the fact that to act feminine is to help others. It just means there a variety of ways to help others.

I did, I said it's a bunch of men flailing around in response to feminism's successes. Is there that much more to say about it? They're unable, or unwilling, to adapt to the new environment which doesn't value masculinity above all and are instead opting to lash out at women on the way down.

Good assessment. But yes there is a lot more to say about it lol. We still need to promote an alternative culture that will turn men away from the manosphere. You know nothing about that.

Also if our society really doesn't devalue femininity, then why do you claim there are so many penalties for men acting feminin? If our culture really doesn't consider masculinity as better than femininity, shouldn't feminine men be widely rewarded by women for acting feminine? And why do women still sacrifice their feminine desires to satisfy a man?

 

[version]

But again, I've repeatedly admitted that non-gendered or gender-neutral behavior exists. It's just not relevant to my discussion. I never said you denied femininity exists. I said you don't understand the meaning of gender.

The problem is you take non-gendered behaviour and try to claim it's gendered, e.g. selfishness. Someone acting selfishly is not necessarily acting masculine. A trans man is not transitioning into a person more strongly defined by selfishness.

That's the thing. There aren't any other definitions that you or I know about. You can't just assume that alternatives exist when you don't know about them. You read the literature and see if you can find an alternative, then we'll discuss it. Until then, you've no argument.

Yes, you can assume there are alternatives. And how can you set yourself up as an arbiter of femininity whilst claiming in all your reading and expertise you're as ignorant as I am when it comes to competing definitions? You really expect people to believe you've never come across a definition of femininity other than your own?

And yes feminine people aren't a monolith. That's why most feminists agree that there are many different ways to act feminine. But that doesn't change the fact that to act feminine is to help others. It just means there a variety of ways to help others.

This is what I mean about you taking non-gendered behaviour and claiming it's gendered. A man isn't less masculine if he chooses to help someone and a selfish woman isn't any less of a woman. That's a bizarrely reductive view of people.

Also if our society really doesn't devalue femininity, then why do you claim there are so many penalties for men acting feminin? If our culture really doesn't consider masculinity as better than femininity, shouldn't feminine men be widely rewarded by women for acting feminine? And why do women still sacrifice their feminine desires to satisfy a man?

I didn't say society didn't devalue femininity, I said it didn't value masculinity above all. Those are two different arguments.

 

[malelesbian]

The problem is you take non-gendered behaviour and try to claim it's gendered, e.g. selfishness. Someone acting selfishly is not necessarily acting masculine. A trans man is not transitioning into a person more strongly defined by selfishness.

You're confused. I've already distinguished between gendered behaviors and masculine and feminine behaviors. Gendered behaviors define a person as a member of a gender. For example, manly behavior defines a person as a man. Womanly acts =/= feminine acts. Feminine acts contribute to feminine culture.

When I talk about masculinity and femininity, I'm talking about cultures, systems of representations, the masculine imaginary and the feminine imaginary. And I doubt you'll find anyone who denies that the masculine imaginary is self-oriented and the feminine imaginary focused on other people. But you can try!

Yes, you can assume there are alternatives.

Stop making assumptions without evidence. Remember when you said that there are books that discuss Butler clearly despite the fact that you didn't know what these books even were or even that they existed at all? Get serious.

You really expect people to believe you've never come across a definition of femininity other than your own?

Yes, because that's the truth. My definition is the only anti-essentialist one. I've asked repeatedly for an alternative anti-essentialist definition of femininity and no one could give one. You certainly can't

A man isn't less masculine if he chooses to help someone

I never said that. I clearly said that I don't become more masculine when I act less feminine and vice versa. Masculine and feminine qualities vary by degrees independently of each other.

and a selfish woman isn't any less of a woman.

I never said this either. I specifically said that feminine behaviors don't define a woman as a woman, womanly behaviors do.

That's a bizarrely reductive view of people.

There's nothing reductive about promoting cultural diversity and pluralism!

I didn't say society didn't devalue femininity, I said it didn't value masculinity above all. Those are two different arguments.

What then does society value over masculinity? Besides it doesn't matter. When I said "society values masculinity over everything else" that was just hyperbole. I meant that society values masculinity over femininity. My point was just that traditional society considers masculinity as superior to femininity. And you have no response to that point.

 

[Mr. Tea]

This sounds as sinister as the 'Red Pill' stuff. Very cynical.

Yeah, you can imagine How to get chicks by acting like a homo being the next iteration in the PUA self-help book series, can't you.

 

[malelesbian]

Yeah, you can imagine How to get chicks by acting like a homobeing the next iteration in the PUA self-help book series, can't you.

Except for the fact that I've repeatedly criticized the instrumentalism exemplified by PUAs. Remember when I talked about non-instrumental love and you criticized me for it? My endorsement of unconditional love was meant as an alternative to PUAs who treat everything as a means to the end of getting laid or satisfying their masculine desires. It just goes to show you lack a coherent criticism of me.

I've also never prescribed any inauthentic behavior. Acting "feminine" inauthentically is just masculine behavior that appears "feminine" but really it's masculine because the man is just using the appearance of femininity to get what he wants. Masculine behavior is behavior that uses people as means to the end of one's own selfish desires. Authentic feminine behavior will always be oriented towards helping both the man and the woman.

 

[version]

You're confused. I've already distinguished between gendered behaviors and masculine and feminine behaviors. Gendered behaviors define a person as a member of a gender. For example, manly behavior defines a person as a man. Womanly acts =/= feminine acts. Feminine acts contribute to feminine culture.

When I talk about masculinity and femininity, I'm talking about cultures, systems of representations, the masculine imaginary and the feminine imaginary. And I doubt you'll find anyone who denies that the masculine imaginary is self-oriented and the feminine imaginary focused on other people. But you can try!

Fair enough.

Stop making assumptions without evidence. Remember when you said that there are books that discuss Butler clearly despite the fact that you didn't know what these books even were or even that they existed at all? Get serious.

You're asking me to assume there are no competing definitions, despite evidence throughout the world that there are competing definitions of more or less everything.

Yes, because that's the truth. My definition is the only anti-essentialist one. I've asked repeatedly for an alternative anti-essentialist definition of femininity and no one could give one. You certainly can't.

My not being able to provide a competing definition doesn't mean one doesn't exist, also Padraig pulled you up for essentialism on page one of this very thread.

What then does society value over masculinity? Besides it doesn't matter. When I said "society values masculinity over everything else" that was just hyperbole. I meant that society values masculinity over femininity. My point was just that society considers masculinity as superior to femininity. And you have no response to that point.

You don't have a point. You just make stuff up on the fly as seen here. You asked me a question then backtracked and said it didn't matter then dismissed your previous comment I was initially responding to as hyperbole then tried to put forward a different point which was closer to the one I'd been making in response to your previous then claimed I have no response to it before I've even responded.

Capital's valued by society over masculinity. The gender of a CEO doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Whether they can keep the money rolling in is far more important. Although you'll probably claim that's all masculine too...

 

[malelesbian]

My not being able to provide a competing definition doesn't mean one doesn't exist, also Padraig pulled you up for essentialism on page one of this very thread.

Then give a competing definition!

And yes, padraig made that claim and he was totally wrong, I already explained why he was wrong, and no one has provided any sound arguments for why I'm an essentialist. You certainly haven't. It just goes to show that a lot of you believe just about anything. Someone makes an allegation and you just assume its true even if the alleger has no argument.

Here's why I'm not an essentialist: because I believe that there are many different ways to act feminine. For any feminine behavior there are multiple ways to perform and interpret it.

You don't have a point. You just make stuff up on the fly as seen here. You asked me a question then backtracked and said it didn't matter then dismissed your previous comment I was initially responding to as hyperbole then tried to put forward a different point which was closer to the one I'd been making in response to your previous then claimed I have no response to it before I've even responded.

But you didn't make any response, not even in this post...?

I don't see what you're getting so worked up about. I'm not making things up on the fly because I literally wrote a book about this stuff. What more do you want?

Capital's valued by society over masculinity. The gender of a CEO doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Whether they can keep the money rolling in is far more important. Although you'll probably claim that's all masculine too...

I do claim capitalist culture is masculine culture, yes. Capitalist culture is driven by self-interest.

 

[version]

But you didn't make any response, not even in this post...?

Yes, I did. You responded to it in your following line. I said capital's valued over masculinity and you claimed capital is masculine.

You can't even keep track of what you've said within the span of minutes.

 

[malelesbian]

Yes, I did. You responded to it in your following line. I said capital's valued over masculinity and you claimed capital is masculine.

You can't even keep track of what you've said within the span of minutes.

Ok. Should I care?

 

[version]

I rest my case.