mixed_biscuits

_________________________
Secondly, do you believe in absolute moral truth or not?

At the risk of derailing a little, I don't think that it's possible to say that there are such things as 'moral truths', as moral statements cannot be verified (you can't definitively conclude that they are either true or false). I could verify the statement 'Sister Ray has Can cds' by checking whether Sister Ray has Can cds, but I can't verify 'murder is wrong' because there is nothing corresponding to 'wrongness' that can be investigated empirically. They're two different kinds of statement.

Anyway, give me an example of such an absolute and prove that it would be accepted as such by all people and in all possible cases!
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
as we all know - among, probably other groups (including wealthy closet neo-nazi sympathisers) the BNP appeal to ordinary, working class and lower-middle class tax-payers who feel ignored by a right-leaning New Labour administration (OK, aside from unmitigated social democratic successes like SureStart and the minimum wage, that's an uncontroversial description to say the least).

a white mate of mine told me just very recently a taxi-driver (clearly of south Asian heritage, my pal said) told him he'd be voting for the BNP as he felt let down.

it's not a novel insight (here i repeat myself from many pages ago), but populism is colour-blind.

(other Dissensians ^ have mentioned established first-generation immigrants and second-generation minority ethnic Brits are susceptible to this kind of rabble-rousing; when people don't think things through too carefully, mainstream politicians play their canine mood music at tabloids who protest too much about the BNP on their front pages; racist attacks go up; notoriously ineffective BNP local councillors do sweet fa upon election; asylum seekers are further impoverished; community tensions are stoked).

a mate of mine works in a large city centre library, in the children section (which is essentially like social work/creche work alongside more grown-up library work).

he has often mentioned how central European immigrant parents and east African immigrant parents rub ea other up the wrong way, etc etc etc, i could go on.

basic start here, Vim, from, of course, Auntie (!) wrt the recent MEP elections

they actually got more percent of the vote in the West Midlands region than the North West region but got in in the North West region because that's a bigger area in population terms
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
At the risk of derailing a little, I don't think that it's possible to say that there are such things as 'moral truths', as moral statements cannot be verified (you can't definitively conclude that they are either true or false). I could verify the statement 'Sister Ray has Can cds' by checking whether Sister Ray has Can cds, but I can't verify 'murder is wrong' because there is nothing corresponding to 'wrongness' that can be investigated empirically. They're two different kinds of statement.

Anyway, give me an example of such an absolute and prove that it would be accepted as such by all people and in all possible cases!

no, i know - i did moral philosophy at university (don't remember all of it - a terrible side-effect of advancing years!). What you say is of course true (well, s'pose it's a pretty big debate in philosophy, but lots of people fall down on that side) on a rigorous level. I simply meant, at an everyday level, I believe in moral right and wrong, regardless of what the 'received' opinion is about anything. that's all, I appreciate your point tho.

So, to give an example, repatriating people due to the colour of their skin is wrong. Some people don't accept it, but they're wrong.
 
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craner

Beast of Burden
It's all over for the BNP now, surely? I can't be the only one who senses this? I thought the whole thing was conducted very well, considering the circumstances. An amazing coup for mainstream politics - I have never, in my lifetime, seen Straw so relaxed and well-received.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
It's all over for the BNP now, surely? I can't be the only one who senses this? I thought the whole thing was conducted very well,considering the circumstances. An amazing coup for mainstream politics - I have never, in my lifetime, seen Straw so relaxed and well-received.

i have highlighted what i think is a crucial and good point from Ollie.

the blogger Sadie Smith (a Labour MP bag-carrier, so knows a thing or two) makes a similar sort of point here (the fourth and fifth paragraphs).

Straw was relaxed but at times also nervy (though the flush of suppressed anger toward someone you despise often sounds like nervousness, i know), i felt; i'll hope your instincts are correct here Ol (they often have been as i know).

but i also think one cannot lose sight of what the Shiraz Socialist mob pointed out ^ - Warsi rather uncomfortable mentioning civil partnerships, Straw singularly failing to acknowledge very real New Labour failings toward its base, Huhne sounding rather illiberal when the numbers subject reared its realist head - and for that reason i cannot make up my mind if the three main parties outbidding each other on immigration means meat and drink for Griffin (despite him making the expected fool of himself) and this the start of their long march, or the fools' performance he gave will be the only thing that lasts long enough in the memory (clearly they're going to have a membership bounce in the short term regardless).

all that said, perhaps i should be more optimistic; to quote Andrew Coates again

The French Front National is now in decline. Increasingly marginalised Why? Partly due to Le Pen’s advancing years. It’s had plenty of internal feuds as well. And nutters.

But it’s mostly due to its failure to get to grips with the political landscape. What has really undermined the FN is its incapacity to propose a coherent alternative in local politics. What did they say: La France au Français! How do they run a Town Hall with a slogan? If they are out for the ‘ethnic’ French only? What do they do with the rest of the electorate and inhabitants? How do they further the needs of some (French), and exclude others (non-French, or non-European)? The ‘nons’ aren’t going to disappear. The idea, looked at closely, that they could be made to, looks pretty ridiculous close up.

These are problems the Front National has never resolved. Which has led to drift, drift and drift. ultimately to going back to the sidelines.
 

you

Well-known member
I thought jack straw was a little uncomfortable actually - When pressed on the bnps rise in correlation to labour bungling the immigration policies he skirted the issue rather poorly mentioning thatt there has always been a far right - then he was pressed to respond yay or nay and reluctantly said that he didnt believe so.... then Warsi stepped in and told him that wasnt an honest response and layed out the labour negatives and what the conservatives could have done/will be doing...... she kinda DDT'd him I thought
 

Tentative Andy

I'm in the Meal Deal
I'm still mulling over what to make of the QT appearence and what impact I think it will have - I reckon at present I have mixed feelings:

Due to the vast publicity surrounding it - the protests outside, debates in the press about whether it should have been allowed, etc - it was never going to an 'ordinary' edition of QT, whether the BBC wanted it to be or not.
But having said that, to an extent I agree with the points gumdrops and others have said - they devoted too much time to the BNP alone, the audience and panel seemed very chummy with each other (though I think there were a few BNP supporters there, I remember Griffin getting scattered applause for some responses, along with angry/shocked reaction to this from the rest of the crowd), and whilst the other political guests controlled the debate well and came over very confidently, a lot of the points they made seemed like empty moralising which prob wouldn't win over the unconverted.

So I can easily see Griffin and the BNP being able to spin the appearence, at least to their own members and present supporters, as a stich-up, and as more evidence that the established parties are scared of the BNP, that the BNP are the only real alternative to the liberal, PC elite, etc etc.
(I'm in two minds as to what to make of the 3 party members seeming to try and outdo each other at being tough on immigration, btw. I think it was a real attempt to address their neglected voting base, the previous letting down of which is obv a factor in the rise in BNP support. But it already worries me that in doing so, they could cede too much ground to the BNP positions and gradually allow them into the mainstream political discourse).

But having said all that, I think it's unarguable that Griffin came over really badly for the vast majority of the show: giving evasive answers to any questions on the controversial areas of BNP policy and strategy, and saying a fair ammount of things that just didn't make any sense and bordered on conspiracy theory (the way he presented himself in front of the camera wont't have helped him either, all the nervous laughter and agitated body-language, it kind of kills the idea of him as a master debater and commanding politician).
And all of this will have really helped, I think, in putting off any 'floating voters' watching who might have been considering voting for the BNP or otherwise supporting them (and it's this sort of sector of the electorate turning to the BNP that is among the biggest worries to me and others).

The panelists could have forced the pressure even further, for sure, by pressing for an answer on what exactly the repatriation policy would entail, amongst other things. Also, I do have to agree with sloane that Griffin was at his best dealing with the question on Islam, in terms of appearing confident and giving a reasonably coherent answer. This is obviously an area where he/they have worked at putting together a superficially sensible-sounding public line, which is worrying. But overall, there did seem to be some benefits to having the party put under public scrutiny and debate like that, rather than just being left to spew out propaganda unchecked.
 

don_quixote

Trent End
nick griffin pleading on the news this morning was risible. he wants an hour broadcast debate with jack straw. i hope mr. straw was laughing into his rice krispies. har har har.
 

mrfaucet

The Ideas Train
Sorry, no, this was a rather simple defeat for the Far Right, as it only could've been.

Was it though? The way I see it, it was a defeat for Nick Griffin, and by extension the BNP. But is it really addressing the problems with the underlying thought processes behind BNP policy i.e. racism? A lot of the time Griffin was shot down because of his Nazi past (and rightly so), but this doens't show that his and other racists' rationale for the wrongness of mixed-race relationships (for instance) is entirely flawed. That's where the real battle lies - in persuading people that racism is irrational and ridiculous. Shooting down Griffin and Co. isn't necessarily the same thing.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
I thought jack straw was a little uncomfortable actually - When pressed on the bnps rise in correlation to labour bungling the immigration policies he skirted the issue rather poorly mentioning thatt there has always been a far right - then he was pressed to respond yay or nay and reluctantly said that he didnt believe so.... then Warsi stepped in and told him that wasnt an honest response and layed out the labour negatives and what the conservatives could have done/will be doing...... she kinda DDT'd him I thought

yup Straw did very badly there, dishonest, completely ran away from it, he could have - pardon my expression - had some balls and come out fighting at least, done it robustly. completely agree w all this.

though funnily enough as i noted a while back when he managed to turn it around to what Frank Field had said, it was Warsi's turn to look a prat when she said she would have a fixed ceiling cap on annual numbers, and Straw gave that line i've admitted to liking about babies, and how much of an authoritarian govt you want your govt to be.

incidentally i knew about Straw's clumsy outburst re veiled women in his surgery beforehand (as i keep mentioning!), but it was only reading the Cohen article that Baboon started the thread w that i found out about Warsi's utterly disgraceful electoral history where she somehow managed to marry elements of the BNP and the Muslim Association of Britain

Then they decided that, as a British Asian, Lady Warsi would be the ideal face of progressive conservatism and a living rebuttal of BNP prejudice. So she would, had she not run a nasty campaign against the sitting Labour MP in Dewsbury in the 2005 election. In white areas, she declared that she would campaign "for British identity and British citizens" and fight the menace of mass immigration. In Muslim areas, the flag appeared in leaflets in a blood-spattered montage of Tony Blair and George Bush and troops in Iraq, while underneath it she played to religious homophobia by claiming that Labour was allowing children to be propositioned for homosexual relationships.

anyway.

obv it's only anecdotal but watching news channels this afternoon (the big thing these days is they love viewers to txt in their thoughts, of course) and a lot of viewers were saying they'd be voting for Griffin for the first time at the next opportunity, as if the British love of the underdog was mobilised because poor ickle Nicky got ganged up on. (which he did, as far as it goes.)
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
so jack straw is people's hero now?

Ffs.#

Edit: Obviously not everyone's, but it's fucking astonishing how some people take yesterday as a victory. jack straw has done far more actual harm than nick griffin - jeez.

"Margaret Thatcher once declared 'I trust Jack Straw. He is a very fair man.' "
 
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scottdisco

rip this joint please
he did at least rebut the Field/Soames house party which Huhne and Warsi appear to have no problem w (and clearly Griffin would regard it as a start).

it's imperfect, yes, but it's something. and - yes - he will still go back to Portcullis House next week, and still no doubt have a drink w the vile Phil Woolas, but the Field/Soames jamboree is a bandwagon gathering steam, i fear, and fair play that he declined to embrace that.

but no, i agree completely w your closing sentence, all Labour home secretaries have presided over terrible, terrible times for asylum seekers in this country since 1997, Blunkett, Clarke, Reid, Smith, am i missing anyone? as Keith Best of the Immigration Advisory Service said once several years ago during an interview w the Guardian, this govt appears to base its asylum policies on what it thinks will appeal to Express readers (and he did actually use my favourite paper as a reference point, not one of your part-time chancers like the Mail :mad:)
 

john eden

male pale and stale
griffin has good grounds for a complaint against the bbc - nobody else who has appeared on the programme has received similar treatment.

It is not, by any means, the end of the line for the bnp. You can't gloss over people's feelings of frustration by pulling out some shouty student types and establishment figures on a bbc programme which is usually only watched by mainstream politicos anyway.

the numbers will speak for themselves in due course... I hope I am wrong and this is the end of any kind of credible far right in the UK. But it's a bit of a hollow victory if the rest of the politicians on the panel are still with us...
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
It is not, by any means, the end of the line for the bnp. You can't gloss over people's feelings of frustration by pulling out some shouty student types and establishment figures on a bbc programme which is usually only watched by mainstream politicos anyway.
..

Spot on, I think. I didnt watch the programme because I find it amazingly annoying at the best of times, but you're totally right, Jon. How do the BNP's constituency (disenfrancised white working class people) perceive a programme like this? Probably as a product of the metropolitan elite, I'd guess. If their concerns were ever addressed in mainstream politics - or if they were even fucking spoke to rather than roundly ignored - then we wouldn't have the whole mess in the first place.
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
It's all over for the BNP now, surely? I can't be the only one who senses this? I thought the whole thing was conducted very well, considering the circumstances. An amazing coup for mainstream politics - I have never, in my lifetime, seen Straw so relaxed and well-received.

Wow. Just, wow. Fucking hell.
 

DannyL

Wild Horses
Caught some of the programme on the news last night though, together with footage of the protest AFA types, and I couldn't help but be struck by how alien the the AA people and their perception of the BNP would be to those who voted for the party. They seem totally focused on fascism + racism = BAD THINGS but have no feeling for the the lives of working class people and what might cause this resentment. I'd like to be proven wrong here obviously.
 

computer_rock

Well-known member
Surely the hostility towards Griffin from the panel and the audience was proportional? I see it as a accurate representation of the public feeling towards the BNP, how could the programme offer any more than that?

As for Dimbleby - anyone who has seen question time before knows he gives everyone a hard time, the difference is that they aren't usually irredeemable racist idiots.

It might seem like 'bullying' when the victim of 'abuse' is completely helpless, but let's not pretend it's the 'bullying' (ie the show's format) that rendered Griffin helpless in the first place, it's the idiotic racist vitriol that pours out his mouth.
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
(I'm in two minds as to what to make of the 3 party members seeming to try and outdo each other at being tough on immigration, btw. I think it was a real attempt to address their neglected voting base, the previous letting down of which is obv a factor in the rise in BNP support. But it already worries me that in doing so, they could cede too much ground to the BNP positions and gradually allow them into the mainstream political discourse).

What struck me after QT was seeing Portillo on This Week saying that what with life expectancy and birth rates going the way they are, we'll probably need more immigration over the next few decades than any major party is prepared to admit (in either sense). No idea how much weight the guy carries these days with the majority of Tories, but it was interesting to see him voice a view that no-one on QT shared, all the same.

(the other thing that struck me was the guest spot - accompanied by eye-bleedingly bad 'edgy' camera work - by Alan 'Tramp Ear' Davis. They should have got Stephen Fry to pop up and say "Actually Alan, your old school is merely 36% Asian these days, so you lose a gazillion points" every other sentence.)
 
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